Was Roughwear The Original Manufacturer Of The Iconic Hercules Jacket?

[tmitchell59]

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I love the Lounge but I gotta say I agree!!!! I am really really loving this thread!!!!!!!! Comparing theories, askin questions, solvin' mysteries..........and here @tmitchell59 goes and picks up a new piece of evidence with a FANCY BACK no less!!! That IS a Fancy Back too!!! I saw the listing and gawked at that back for awhile. I wish I wasn't working while this conversation/investigation has been going down here. I feel like I can't ENJOY it as much just checking in sporatically.

Thanks for all the contributions and comments on this thread. We got a reall THINK TANK goin here!!!!!!!!!!!

Your "unlabeled" Hercules with the Roughwear patent is a significant piece of the puzzle. I had this connection when I saw the patented collar show up on RW jackets and the Hercules. It seemed the thoughts was Monarch made this jacket and that makes sense too, except the collar.

All the questions are leading to answers.

I have long had many of the thoughts, but this thread really sewed things together for me. I've learned a lot.

 

[tmitchell59]

Horsehide leather is quite large in square footage, at least 20 sf for a double front, the larger hides can be cut down into single fronts and they're still 13 to 15sf each. A normal jacket would only require 35 to 45 sf of leather.
I don't think the fancy back is a cost cutting thing. Labor always cost more.
Side gusseted bodice always fits the torso better than the two front and back like the A1/A2 jackets.

Here is a video showing the sizes and differences between animal hides from Horween. A whole steerhide side can seem smaller than the full double horse fronts.

Interesting video discussing/showing the different hide types.

California Sportswear is one of the main makers in the day to specify different hides. Typically displayed on their Iconic label.

Washable Goatskin, Washable Calf Skin, Pony Hide, Horsehide, Chrome Tanned Steerhide, Chrome Tanned Cowhide, Capeskin. I probably forgot one.

Having and comparing these vintage leathers in hand is something I can't convey well, but it too tells a story, it wasn't all the same then, just as now.

 

[handymike]

This jacket has long been my favorite, and I really thank @RiteStuffBryan for posting up all those catalog pages.
They helped me figure out things.
"Go Loungers!"

 

[RiteStuffBryan]

This jacket has long been my favorite, and I really thank @RiteStuffBryan for posting up all those catalog pages.
They helped me figure out things.
"Go Loungers!"

No problem, finding those Herc listings was fun!

 

[tmitchell59]

Another puzzle:

Roughwear jacket pictured above and here. I found it while re-arranging. Here is the curious ribbon script, which I have never seen.

This is the Script:

Patent applied for on this
Designed Model
Serial No 98534

I ran the number but found not connection.

I have another of this "patented designed" with the 40s Windward label. Should arrive next week.

 

[tmitchell59]

 

[RiteStuffBryan]

You found it! I was starting to look but didn’t see anything; and it’s a Rough Wear.

 

[tmitchell59]

 

[tmitchell59]

I made this a Monarch vs Roughwear contest, but I don't recall anyone asking why?

When I got in to vintage leather jackets I began to ask questions. I had a lot of Whys? One that began to stand out was Why is this particular jacket so Iconic? It was often reproduced by all the makers. As this thread shows I went about owning three reproductions and one original. I sold them for lack of fit, they were all similar. I did not like this style on me, so I got more confused. I've got many better fitting jackets.

I don't recall a written statement or conversation that said Monarch was the producer of this Hercules, but the impression was strong. I could see it. I own several Monarch jackets from the 30s-50s and can attest to their above average quality. Their prolific use of "French seams" was one indicator. There did not appear to be any reason not to believe they were the maker, until..

I purchased the above RW jacket with the patent number collar, the same patent applied to the Sears Hercules. I purchased another jacket with this patent label and things begin to click. This jacket not only had the label, but also the French Seam construction. This told me that RW was fully capable of producing the Iconic Hercules.

@Claybertrand said he had an interesting jacket. When I saw the pics the cement began to harden. This jacket is the smoking gun, which it was. Here was the full on Iconic Hercules with no Sears label, but the patent label.

John Chapman of Goodwear Leather is one of the most prominent leather jacket makers and historians. He knows his stuff inside and out. I know John has reproduced jackets from an original. I believed he had inside the jacket information.

I planned to call John as a rebuttal witness in this investigation thinking he may have an insiders view I did not get. As my research continued I was brought to Goodwear leather site and found the final word to confirm RW as the original maker.

I will post the information from JC's site on the next page.

 

[tmitchell59]

The links below are the full page from JC's site. I've tried to highlight the information, but did a bad job.

It is JC's take on the maker.

https://www.goodwearleather.com/pages/sale_imperial_0003.html

https://www.goodwearleather.com/pages/sale_label_0002.html

 

[RiteStuffBryan]

Early ‘40s Sears Hercules? Sure looks like one to me, found on ArtofManliness:

And colorized:

 

[handymike]

That’s totally it!
These jackets for all their cool have a tendency to create a “pot belly” effect on the wearer. When I first joined the Lounge there were 2 members that had originals, and had posted fit photos. I had found a similar styled jacket on ebay from California Sportswear that didn’t have the “pooch.” When designing the GW Imperial, I told John I definitely didn’t want to look fat, so he used the CSC shape for the body. Once we found the OG 1938 HERCULES JACKET, John confirmed that there is a curve in the pattern along the main zipper that creates this effect. Other than the buldge, this jacket is a home-run! Other makers may not account for the little pattern details that GW does.
How the guy in the photo above got his to drape like that is a mystery…chrome tanned horse is not that soft….

 

[handymike]

@Peacoat @Edward Is there a way to move all this great info and the current discussion of the historical jacket to it’s own designated thread?
In time the BK reference might get lost.

 

[Claybertrand]

This thread is excellent and chock full of true facts. It really should stand on its own. That JC information is corroborating evidence of what we have been gnawing on and moving toward for awhile. @tmitchell59 , @handymike, @RiteStuffBryan --- you guys NAILED this mystery. Its like, once we got a foot in the door, that info just really started to flow from all you guys' searches. Maybe its just the simple satisfaction of a mystery being solved but I must reiterate that this is one of the best and most satisfying threads on these old jackets that I have experienced here in the Lounge.

These things are true historic adventures. We are all so used to being able to just GOOGLE/WIKI anything and everything and come up with a definitive answer. THIS was not THAT!!!! These companies do not exist anymore and no one really seemed to record much of anything about them either. Honestly, who in the 30s-50s would have thought to archive the minutia of details surrounding a company who made jackets??!?!?!? Like, WHY do THAT!??!?!?!?
So this was a real old fashion mystery to track down with a few shoddy leads and no one from the era around for us to ask questions to. The internet certainly provided the tools and ultimately the pertinent information to solve this but it took the vintage leather jacket equivalent of the Monument Men to figure this out. You guys kick ass!!!!!

Now let's go find that lost plundered Nazi Gold!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Peacoat]

@Peacoat @Edward Is there a way to move all this great info and the current discussion of the historical jacket to it’s own designated thread?
In time the BK reference might get lost.

Don't know why I just now saw this.

You want the Hercules info moved to its own thread? I can do it, but it is time consuming, and it's possible something might get screwed up. The software in this forum doesn't allow me to move one message "and all messages below this measage." I have to move each individual message, but there is a way I can do it relatively quickly.

Suggest a name for the new thread.

Does anyone disagree with saving the Hercules info in a new and dedicated thread?

 

[jeo]

Since there was recent discussion on Rough Wear and the inner collar, thought I would post this. Will post in the vintage outerwear thread as well.

Does the design look familiar? No pics of the back unfortunately.

 

[tmitchell59]

Since there was recent discussion on Rough Wear and the inner collar, thought I would post this. Will post in the vintage outerwear thread as well.

Does the design look familiar? No pics of the back unfortunately.

View attachment 497645

I see very few rough wear clothing jackets . I have never seen one like this I love it

 

[Peacoat]

I will be moving the relevant posts from the Bill Kelso Hercules thread into this one. It is a work in progess, so bear with me.


DONE

 

[tmitchell59]

Wow ! This looks great.

Thanks for the effort!

no idea 5 pages long! I found original Hercules in, of all places "The Wild Ones". I will post a screen grab. I probably have more pics of originals I will post.

 

[tmitchell59]

The actor blows some notes on his Chromatic Harmonica. This shot is from the movie "The Wild Ones" . This guy is wearing an Iconic Sears Hercules.

Note: Chin Strap, ball and chain pull on back; clearly see the 3 piece back and half-belt with no adjustments the sides, cuffs.

While awaiting my new Durable I am now investigating the maker of Brando's jacket. It appears the consensus is Durable. I've gone through the movie and grad a ton of pics. Not just Brando's jacket, but the others. That will be another thread.