Was Roughwear The Original Manufacturer Of The Iconic Hercules Jacket?

[Brandrea33]

Add another wrinkle to the Herc mystery. The catalog jackets has no inside full facing. The inside leather strip only at the very top 1/3 of the jacket. What does the lining look like on your vintages?

Lining done like the catalog photo:
View attachment 495371

Most repro lining has the modern full inside strip:
View attachment 495372

Add another wrinkle to the Herc mystery. The catalog jackets has no inside full facing. The inside leather strip only at the very top 1/3 of the jacket. What does the lining look like on your vintages?

Lining done like the catalog photo:
View attachment 495371

Most repro lining has the modern full inside strip:
View attachment 495372

My Good Wear Hercules looks just like your first picture.

 

[Brandrea33]

Cool!

Yeah GW is keen on vintage correct details. That's a nice one you've got there.

Thank you, I really enjoy wearing it.

I‘ve asked John to add the collar protector on my next one as I feel that’s an important detail to have and practical too.

 

[handymike]

here's where things get tricky...
Grommet zipper, but with chest pocket (straight chain), and plaid lining...
Also, look at the different cuffs.
Different maker?
This is a 1940 or 1941 jacket:





VS. 1938 or 1939 jacket with loop chain chest zip.

 

[handymike]

@tmitchell59 , the one you posted is a real unicorn: 1942 liner with chain loop chest pocket (38/39) ,an older main zipper pull, and 1938/39 cuffs.. If the zips aren’t replacements it just shows how crazy things must have been once these jacketmakers ramped up their military production while still trying to fill catalog orders. Or, maybe in 1942 Sears went back to the 1939 producer after 1940/41.

 

[Claybertrand]

Yes that’s the ‘42, I have access to all the Sears catalogs on Ancestry and searched through them for Hercules half belts, the result was I found them in the ‘35-‘42 Fall/Winter catalogs and then I added dates to the images for reference.

Here’s ‘39-‘41:

View attachment 495236
Price is missing on my ‘39 screenshot, I removed it while toying with the image.
View attachment 495237
View attachment 495238

Here’s one of the double-breasted Hercs listed above, as far as I can tell as there are no tags shown:

View attachment 495239
View attachment 495240
View attachment 495241
View attachment 495242

These Catalogs are excellent.

So, @Claybertrand ’s jacket doesn’t line up with the Sears catalogs…blue Melton liner with cord collar…but with chest pocket…if it is a Roughwear, that would really be the missing link.

Sorry for not seeing this thread activity sooner---

OK as if we needed to twist this up even further, be advised that my jacket was handled and had some level of repair done by the Ralph Lauren Vintage curators at their store in San Francisco (I believe it was the SF store not NY) before it was purchased there by the guy I bought it from. SO almost heartbreakingly, the main zipper was replaced with a YKK. Now I am a tad leary of using main zippers to definitively date jackets because they are the most used "mechanical" part of the jacket and thus most prone to failure so they are often replaced and can be misleading. I do understand that with limited evidence to date these old garments, we have to do the best with what we have but we need to remain cognizant that the main zipper cannot be relied upon as the end all be all evidence to nail down a date.

Further complicating matters is the stated lack of a Chin Strap---and the pocket zipper is an Old Small Conmar. I don't know if it is a replacement or original. If it is a replacement---it was likely done previous to the Ralph Lauren people working on it or else it may well have been replaced with a YKK as well (though this is not definitive evidence--just a hunch). Here is the pocket zip:

From what I can tell, the Ralph Lauren tailoring is minimal to keep items in as close to AS IS VINTAGE condition as possible so they would only be repairing/replacing truly damaged parts.

 

[handymike]

From the catalog, 1938 & 39 also had the arm seams not lining up with the rear yoke.

 

[jeo]

here's where things get tricky...
Grommet zipper, but with chest pocket (straight chain), and plaid lining...
Also, look at the different cuffs.
Different maker?
This is a 1940 or 1941 jacket:
View attachment 495444
View attachment 495445
View attachment 495446


VS. 1938 or 1939 jacket with loop chain chest zip.
View attachment 495447
View attachment 495451

Let me add to the confusion.

Grommet zipper, no chest pocket, with the supposed later ‘horse head’ label and wool liner.

Note the slightly rounder chin strap I usually associate with the earlier models.

There were undoubtedly multiple makers of this jacket. Collar shape, cuff design/shape, liners and pocket angles changed from maker to maker.

 

[handymike]

I think the horse head label was the early one

 

[jeo]

That's what I always thought too but then I saw tmitchell59 's post earlier in the thread where he declared the 'giant hercules' label as being older and the 'horse head' label as being later. That's why I said "supposed".

Anyway to confirm that?

 

[Claybertrand]

That's what I always thought too but then I saw tmitchell59 's post earlier in the thread where he declared the 'giant hercules' label as being older and the 'horse head' label as being later. That's why I said "supposed".

Anyway to confirm that?

Good question. This is assuming they used only one label in any given era. I always understood the "giant hercules" was the older label. But I have no factual reason to hold this belief.

 

[jeo]

Good question. This is assuming they used only one label in any given era. I always understood the "giant hercules" was the older label. But I have no factual reason to hold this belief.

Great point. Now the question becomes is it at all possible that different labels were used by different manufacturers for jackets that were being produced in the same year?

I'm assuming that Sears didn't make the labels either but is it safe to assume that Sears would send labels to manufacturers to put in jackets? If so, would it make more sense that jackets being produced in the same year but by different makers should have the same labels?

 

[Claybertrand]

Great point. Now the question becomes is it at all possible that different labels were used by different manufacturers for jackets that were being produced in the same year?

Or even different labels by THE SAME manufacturer within the same year?? One would THINK they used one label at a time because things were simpler back then but who knows?

 

[jeo]

^^ Haha yes, possible too!! Too many questions...

 

[handymike]

This one is the jacket that started it all for me…
1942 model from the details:

 

[RiteStuffBryan]

Also look closely at the 1940 listing, seems to be the giant Herc tag:

 

[handymike]

Let me add to the confusion.

Grommet zipper, no chest pocket, with the supposed later ‘horse head’ label and wool liner.

Note the slightly rounder chin strap I usually associate with the earlier models.

View attachment 495492
View attachment 495493 View attachment 495494
View attachment 495495

There were undoubtedly multiple makers of this jacket. Collar shape, cuff design/shape, liners and pocket angles changed from maker to maker.

With this blue lining and no pocket, it’s 1936 or ‘37

 

[tmitchell59]

Let me add to the confusion.

Grommet zipper, no chest pocket, with the supposed later ‘horse head’ label and wool liner.

Note the slightly rounder chin strap I usually associate with the earlier models.

View attachment 495492
View attachment 495493 View attachment 495494
View attachment 495495

There were undoubtedly multiple makers of this jacket. Collar shape, cuff design/shape, liners and pocket angles changed from maker to maker.

Yes, this remains early but this pull is a transition from the clam shell, you do see this pull on a grommet set up, but not the first use, I do believe the Giant label does predate the Horsehead label. This jacket demonstrates the quick evolution, the label and zipper change in short time. This particular zipper setup is soon changed to a sunrise zipper box.

 

[tmitchell59]

ALERT: More mud for my water!

That's what I always thought too but then I saw tmitchell59 's post earlier in the thread where he declared the 'giant hercules' label as being older and the 'horse head' label as being later. That's why I said "supposed".

Anyway to confirm that?

Yes, I just confirmed I was incorrect. I went back and found this Hercules Barnstormer with a Horsehead label dated from 1933.

Date with this in mind.

 

[tmitchell59]

I thought the earliest editions lacked a chest pocket?

View attachment 495210
View attachment 495211

View attachment 495212

Until ‘38:

View attachment 495213

I have been skeptical of the 1935 pictured jacket to be the jacket we know, the jacket pictured in the 1936 catalog is the one we know.

The 36 description includes this key phrase side gussets. Why? because they are new.

 

[RiteStuffBryan]

That barnstormer is a work of art and looks to be in incredible condition!