WARNING! Controversial poll ahead,...

[Raegan]

My friend is a 32 year old woman who has had very severe cerebral palsy since birth. She has never crawled, stood, walked or been able to speak so she can be understood by anyone except the few who can interpret her sounds. She has extremely limited use of her arms and hands and can only use 2 digits to do anything--and those things are done exceedingly slowly as her arms and hands (and legs and feet) are terribly spastic. She is bright, she uses her 2 fingers to stab at the computer to write, and she takes classes online.

Her email to me said, "Daily I thank God for the wonderful gift of life He has given me!! His Word tells me I am 'fearfully and wonderfully made' and I know that I am His child. Life has given me so many opportunities to share His love in my own way. I am SO blessed!!"

Your friend sounds like an amazing woman. People like that always amaze me with their strength and faith. I wish I could be that strong.

As for the poll, I voted both evolution and creation although, I think evolution isn't quite the word to use for my belief. I think the more appropriate word would be adaptation. I believe we adapt to our environments. But I believe God made man from dust and woman from man. (Because he could do better )

 

[Benny Holiday]

Related question: intelligence

This intrigues me: No one is precisely sure how many different species exist on Earth right now. Some scientists estimate the count as somewhere between 3 million and 30 million. Some biologists suggest that the count might be as high as 100 million.

Evolutionists believe that one-celled organisms evolved over millions of years to become more complex creatures: flatworms, eventually to fish, that gave rise to land-dwelling amphibians. Accordingly, then, hundreds of thousands of species have 'evolved' lungs; untold thousands have 'evolved' a wide variety of limbs, and scales 'evolved' into fur or feathers on thousands upon thousands of species. Human beings share the common characteristics of movable limbs, lungs, and body insulation with innumerable other creatures on this planet.

And yet, out of all those millions of different species, many with shared 'evolutionary' traits, only one has 'evolved' the ability to reason? True sapience has only arisen in one species out of all those myriad organisms? Why did evolutionary lightning strike so many times with lungs, with hair, with limbs, with eyes, but only struck once with the higher intelligence exhibited by human beings?

 

[Benny Holiday]

Then how come I don't have it? I don't worship anyone, or anything, and never felt the need to do so. Maybe you do, maybe other people do, but I don't and have never felt the urge to. Sure, I love reading about certain people, respect their accomplishments and emulate their style, but worship? Hardly. I have been moved emotionally to the point of tears by something as simple as walking through a park followed by the moon and the sun. But never did I feel the need to bow down. As someone who loves a lot of things, among them money, power, drugs, artists, nature, I can claim with some certainty that I have never wanted to outright worship any of it. I can understand being so moved like you said by the Divine, although I feel personally doing so would be very unfair, but I don't believe it is a sentiment that demands a substitution by any means. Perhaps I have a sociopath-like condition here, but I really see that a blessing more than anything else.

I noticed that every sin you mentioned is a very particular sort, that between one and somebody else. Dozens of 'sins' are really just risky behaviors to oneself and it's up to one's self to decide if the risk is worth it.

I use the phrase 'bow down' metaphorically, of course! What I mean is, we all cherish something/s in our hearts that is or could almost be an obsession (I'm trying not to think of my 40's tie collection now!) and in that sense we all worship something. That's how some things become addictions for people, I guess. Worship is, after all, defined as 'reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.' Many things can take their place in one's heart as an idol.

Commiting sins to yourself or to others, well, we all do wrong things. If we didn't, the world wouldn't see the misery it does today.

 

[pablocham]

And yet, out of all those millions of different species, many with shared 'evolutionary' traits, only one has 'evolved' the ability to reason? True sapience has only arisen in one species out of all those myriad organisms? Why did evolutionary lightning strike so many times with lungs, with hair, with limbs, with eyes, but only struck once with the higher intelligence exhibited by human beings?

Given the horrific uses to which reason has been put in the last century alone--trench warfare, death camps, nuclear bombs, and every other contrivance to destroy other humans as efficiently as possible--couldn't it be that the ability to reason is actually an evolutionary disadvantage? I am not sure what is so great about the ability to reason if it just makes men into more efficient killers. That and the fact that in any given situation no two people are likely to agree on just what is reasonable--everybody's reason leads them in different and often contradictory directions--makes me wonder what is so great about our supposed "higher intelligence."

 

[indyjim]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike K.
The bottom line is this...evolution explains how I got here, the Bible explains why I am here. I believe in one God and I accept that evolution is a part of His creative handiwork.

Agreed, and IMHO, when "man" was created was when God gave him a soul.

 

[LaMedicine]

I was fascinated when I first studied development of the human fetus.
From the single fertilized egg, we trace the development of life as we grow into a human baby. From the single cell to a fish-like creature, to having 4 limbs and a tail, losing the tail and finaly becoming human-looking. The heart from the single chamber to 2 chambers, then 3 and the final 4 chambers.
It is beautiful and a miracle in itself, but also a testimony of how we got here.

As Mike K. said, the why and how.

 

[Miss_Bella_Hell]

Ever visited this website?

TELEOLOGICAL ARGUMENT (I)
(1) Check out the world/universe/giraffe. Isn't it complex?
(2) Only God could have made them so complex.
(3) Therefore, God exists.


http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm

 

[LizzieMaine]

An interesting thread, to be sure!

I was struck today by the contrast in something LizzieMaine said and an email I received from a friend. (Sorry, I don't know exactly how to bring up the quote in a box, so I am re-writing it):

"Given the fact that I'm nearsighted, pot-bellied, flat-footed and suffer from excruciating sciata, there's no way I could be anything by an accident. An intelligent designer couldn't possibly do such a slipshod job."

My friend is a 32 year old woman who has had very severe cerebral palsy since birth. She has never crawled, stood, walked or been able to speak so she can be understood by anyone except the few who can interpret her sounds. She has extremely limited use of her arms and hands and can only use 2 digits to do anything--and those things are done exceedingly slowly as her arms and hands (and legs and feet) are terribly spastic. She is bright, she uses her 2 fingers to stab at the computer to write, and she takes classes online.

Her email to me said, "Daily I thank God for the wonderful gift of life He has given me!! His Word tells me I am 'fearfully and wonderfully made' and I know that I am His child. Life has given me so many opportunities to share His love in my own way. I am SO blessed!!"

Now THERE'S two different perspectives for you! Both give me lots to think about. This is a really interesting, provacative thread! Thanks for the food for thought!

Well, I was being facetious, of course, in my original comment -- I'm not *really* that cynical -- and I certainly would admire anyone who could bear up under the circumstances faced by Etienne's friend.

But at the same time, there was a point to my comment -- which goes down to something that caused me to move away from religion. I spent most of my teens and twenties as a pretty hard-core creationist -- but the more I reasoned about it and the more I observed the world around me, the more it seemed impossible for me to reconcile the reality of what I saw with the whole idea of an omnipotent, infallible deity who wanted only the best for his creatures. It really looked to me more like a jar of tadpoles in some kid's room -- a kid who got bored and just didn't bother with the jar any more and let it fill up with algae and eventually the tadpoles got sick and died, and the kid didnt even care. And the more I tried to rationalize that theologically, the more it seemed like I was trying to support something that was ultimately insupportable.

The only conclusion that made sense to me, in the end, was that it's not a "perfect world." And I just couldn't see any evidence from either science or history that it ever was. And that's why I couldn't believe in creationism any more.

But I don't believe you *need* a religious belief to be a good, decent, kind person -- and that's the life I've tried to lead. Frankly, where we came from doesn't matter in the least bit to me -- what matters is that we're *here,* and it's our repsonsibility to make the best of the world we're in.

 

[jake431]

But I don't believe you *need* a religious belief to be a good, decent, kind person -- and that's the life I've tried to lead. Frankly, where we came from doesn't matter in the least bit to me -- what matters is that we're *here,* and it's our repsonsibility to make the best of the world we're in.

:eusa_clap

 

[Section10]

Well, I was being facetious, of course, in my original comment -- I'm not *really* that cynical -- and I certainly would admire anyone who could bear up under the circumstances faced by Etienne's friend.

But at the same time, there was a point to my comment -- which goes down to something that caused me to move away from religion. I spent most of my teens and twenties as a pretty hard-core creationist -- but the more I reasoned about it and the more I observed the world around me, the more it seemed impossible for me to reconcile the reality of what I saw with the whole idea of an omnipotent, infallible deity who wanted only the best for his creatures. It really looked to me more like a jar of tadpoles in some kid's room -- a kid who got bored and just didn't bother with the jar any more and let it fill up with algae and eventually the tadpoles got sick and died, and the kid didnt even care. And the more I tried to rationalize that theologically, the more it seemed like I was trying to support something that was ultimately insupportable.

The only conclusion that made sense to me, in the end, was that it's not a "perfect world." And I just couldn't see any evidence from either science or history that it ever was. And that's why I couldn't believe in creationism any more.

But I don't believe you *need* a religious belief to be a good, decent, kind person -- and that's the life I've tried to lead. Frankly, where we came from doesn't matter in the least bit to me -- what matters is that we're *here,* and it's our repsonsibility to make the best of the world we're in.

There is soooooo much that could be said here but I will restrict myself to the "perfect world" paragraph.

Assuming there is no supernatural, then this is indeed a perfect world because it is what it is and there is no possible way it could have been any different. Only with a god can a standard exist which you can hold the world up to and compare it with and only with a god can a better world be hoped for. Without god no other alternatives exist besides what we already have and nothing else can exist because there is no other way for it to exist. It's perfection lies in its singularity. You can call it good, bad, wonderful, terrible and imperfect, but all these words have no meaning since there is nothing else to compare it to outside of our own personal imaginations. And we all have different ideas about which world is the best. O.B. Ladin envisions a perfect world under the rule of fundamentalist Islam. You may not agree with that but you cannot say your version is any better.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

This intrigues me: No one is precisely sure how many different species exist on Earth right now. Some scientists estimate the count as somewhere between 3 million and 30 million. Some biologists suggest that the count might be as high as 100 million.

Evolutionists believe that one-celled organisms evolved over millions of years to become more complex creatures: flatworms, eventually to fish, that gave rise to land-dwelling amphibians. Accordingly, then, hundreds of thousands of species have 'evolved' lungs; untold thousands have 'evolved' a wide variety of limbs, and scales 'evolved' into fur or feathers on thousands upon thousands of species. Human beings share the common characteristics of movable limbs, lungs, and body insulation with innumerable other creatures on this planet.

And yet, out of all those millions of different species, many with shared 'evolutionary' traits, only one has 'evolved' the ability to reason? True sapience has only arisen in one species out of all those myriad organisms? Why did evolutionary lightning strike so many times with lungs, with hair, with limbs, with eyes, but only struck once with the higher intelligence exhibited by human beings?

I believe the evolutionary argument is that lungs evolved once. All species with lungs are branched off the tree somewhere above that original lung-ed species. Same with all the other traits you mentioned.

As for sapience. Well, we humans don't ascribe it to any other species. But that is a little more than pretentious. How does one test whether a rabbit can reason? If we take the root definition of sapience: n : ability to apply knowledge or experience or understanding or common sense and insight. One could argue that all animals will fit into this definition somehow. The problem, i think, is that we can't communicate on any meaningful level with any other species. This is a communication problem. It doesn't mean other species wouldn't be intelligent or able to reason if we could communicate with them.

bk

 

[Miss_Bella_Hell]

And yet, out of all those millions of different species, many with shared 'evolutionary' traits, only one has 'evolved' the ability to reason? True sapience has only arisen in one species out of all those myriad organisms? Why did evolutionary lightning strike so many times with lungs, with hair, with limbs, with eyes, but only struck once with the higher intelligence exhibited by human beings?

You are begging the question my dear BH. THAT is a logical fallacy!

 

[LizzieMaine]

You can call it good, bad, wonderful, terrible and imperfect, but all these words have no meaning since there is nothing else to compare it to outside of our own personal imaginations. And we all have different ideas about which world is the best. O.B. Ladin envisions a perfect world under the rule of fundamentalist Islam. You may not agree with that but you cannot say your version is any better.

And, y'know, that's the thing -- not having my world view defined to fit the boundaries of a particular religious belief, I no longer feel any *obligation* to define or defend my vision as "better" than anyone else's, or any need to evangelize anyone else to my point of view. None of that matters to me anymore.

What does matter to me is simply how people treat other people -- and especially how they treat those who are The Other to them. I think that's the basic foundation of all human morality -- and all else is vanity and a striving after the wind.

 

[Terry Lennox]

higher intelligence?

What do you describe as higher intelligence? Higher than what?

If there are as you point out 100 million species.. how do you know only one has "Higher Intelligence?"

Who told you only one did?

And if the world is full of 100 million species that are as you point out "Lower Intelligence" how do they survive being so un-intelligent?

 

[LizzieMaine]

The problem, i think, is that we can't communicate on any meaningful level with any other species. This is a communication problem. It doesn't mean other species wouldn't be intelligent or able to reason if we could communicate with them.

Maybe it just takes the right kind of approach.

http://www.koko.org/world/journal.phtml?offset=15

 

[Miss_Bella_Hell]

higher intelligence?

What do you describe as higher intelligence? Higher than what?

If there are as you point out 100 million species.. how do you know only one has "Higher Intelligence?"

Who told you only one did?

And if the world is full of 100 million species that are as you point out "Lower Intelligence" how do they survive being so un-intelligent?

Look, this is kind of a silly thing to bring up when the guy is clearly trying to say "god created man and gave him a unique intelligence" and NOT trying to say "MAN WINZ AT BEING SMART".

I don't believe in god but I do believe we are the only species to be self-conscious in an epistemological sense. To answer your question, animals survive by instinct.

 

[J. M. Stovall]

And yet, out of all those millions of different species, many with shared 'evolutionary' traits, only one has 'evolved' the ability to reason? True sapience has only arisen in one species out of all those myriad organisms? Why did evolutionary lightning strike so many times with lungs, with hair, with limbs, with eyes, but only struck once with the higher intelligence exhibited by human beings?

But that is not necessarily true, it's just that we are the only ones to survive until present times. The other humanoid races were either killed off or absorbed by homo sapiens.

 

[Lauren]

And, y'know, that's the thing -- not having my world view defined to fit the boundaries of a particular religious belief, I no longer feel any *obligation* to define or defend my vision as "better" than anyone else's, or any need to evangelize anyone else to my point of view. None of that matters to me anymore.

What does matter to me is simply how people treat other people -- and especially how they treat those who are The Other to them. I think that's the basic foundation of all human morality -- and all else is vanity and a striving after the wind.

This is very true, Lizzie.

Even though I personally believe in Creation, it would be silly to hold this view up to someone who doesn't have the same faith as I do. I think that's where Creation vs. Evolution debates usually go wrong.

If I personally, as a Christian, held others up to my belief system I would constantly find myself either depressed or angry, and lash out at those who didn't agree- thus giving my belief system a bad name. But it was originally founded on Love- and I wish that more of my faith lived the life of Patience and Love originally taught. I think it would have a much more positive impact.

Oh, and about the world being perfect- in my faith it was created perfect, but after the Fall, the perfection was destroyed. In Genesis 3:

17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.

18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.

19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

 

[Serial Hero]

All of Earth, and the universe for that matter, is like one giant, complex jigsaw puzzle. All of the pieces (animals, plants, the whole ecological system) fit and work together creating a whole cycle of life. Man is the only piece in this puzzle that doesn’t quite fit; that tries to make all the other pieces conform to what it feels they should be, or eliminate them altogether.

 

[Serial Hero]

Man’s not necessarily any more intelligent than other species. We’re just the only one with opposable thumbs. And look how much good they’ve done us.