VJ Day

[dhermann1]

Nanking book

That's the one where the author ultimately killed herself, right? Not long ago.

 

[Dixon Cannon]

The Rape of Nanking

That's the one where the author ultimately killed herself, right? Not long ago.

DH1, correct. This is the one. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rape_of_Nanking_(book)

http://articles.sfgate.com/2005-04-17/living/17370834_1_iris-chang-car-seat-driver-s-seat

-dixon cannon

 

[Phantomfixer]

Actually it was China who fought the longest (July 7, 1937 – September 9, 1945). They were an ally as well.

I kinda thought the same thing I think they (China)had it pretty rough. Didn't Japan invade in the early 30's 1933 maybe?

 

[Silver Dollar]

I kinda thought the same thing I think they (China)had it pretty rough. Didn't Japan invade in the early 30's 1933 maybe?

Yes. By the end of 1931, The Empire of the Sun had conquered Manchuria.

 

[Silver Dollar]

One of the most enduring horrors stemming from what Imperial Japan did to China is the environmental damage that endures to this day: the entire Chinese manufacturing sector was uprooted from the coastal regions and forced inland, toward the western part of the country, destroying huge swaths of agricultural and wilderness territory that has never fully recovered. The toll on both the region's human and wildlife populations has been incalculable -- the occupation quite literally devastated the nation. Which was its intent.

I think there's a tendency today to downplay the significance of the Pacific War, to somehow suggest the war against Imperial Japan was "less just" than that against Nazi Germany. Many Americans, especially, tend to think the whole point of the war was "revenge for Pearl Harbor." In fact, though, Imperial Japan was guilty of incalculable horrors during the 1930s and 1940s, long before the first bomb was dropped at Pearl. Today, of all days, we should remember that.

The environmental damage is a very interesting point. I had no idea the Empire of the Sun destroyed the land. You never hear about that part of the war.

I have to say that I never thought of the Pacific War as revenge for Pearl. That's what to Doolittle Raid was for even if it was just a little pin prick compared to Pearl. I always felt that we had a lot of allies we needed to help out or else the Empire of the Sun would have been able to do a lot more damage. I hold the Rape of Nanking on the same leve as the Holocaust. True, many more people were killed in the Holocaust but the level of cruelty was the same. I can see no reason why such a thing had to be done. There was no military, strategic or financial reason for this action. It was more common in medieval and Dark Ages days but in the 20th Century, it was over the top as far as I'm concerned.

 

[HepKitty]

DH1, correct. This is the one. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rape_of_Nanking_(book)

http://articles.sfgate.com/2005-04-17/living/17370834_1_iris-chang-car-seat-driver-s-seat

-dixon cannon

it's so sad

 

[Silver Dollar]

I read that article. I couldn't help thinking how the massacre in China parallels the Holocaust in Europe so closely. The saddest part to me wasn't the amount of people killed, maimed and tortured. The part that makes me the saddest is the fact that the revisionists keep trying to convince everyone the events never existed. They weren't even there. Eisenhower had it pegged when he ordered his men to take as many photos and talk to as many people as possible so that there would be an abundance of evidence to prove that what he saw existed. Then he said he wanted all this evidence because some time in the future some b*%tard is going to say this never happened. Same thing with the criticism of Chang's book i.e. an army of revisionists right there to prove it never happened. Now if I go into this any more I believe this thread will either be closed or deleted and I'd hate to see that happen.

 

[PADDY]

The forgotten war.

Sadly, it was very much the 'Forgotten War.' As Europeans celebrated the defeat of Nazi Germany, the war in the Far East waged on for months more, yet history never seems to give it the same limelight as the European Conflict.

And as many have already pointed out, Japanese expansionism and Imperialism (along with the damage and atrocities..etc) had been ongoing in the East for at least a good decade prior to the Pearl Harbor attack. But remember, the early to mid Century were still very much the era of Empire Building for many countries and we Brits had a fair share of the spoils and carving up other people's lands in the Far East.

But YES, it's not a well remembered conflict, despite the losses and I dare say in time it will be pretty well forgotten and removed from most people's consciousness (as is the Great War, already) - sadly...

 

[HepKitty]

Sadly, it was very much the 'Forgotten War.' As Europeans celebrated the defeat of Nazi Germany, the war in the Far East waged on for months more, yet history never seems to give it the same limelight as the European Conflict.

And as many have already pointed out, Japanese expansionism and Imperialism (along with the damage and atrocities..etc) had been ongoing in the East for at least a good decade prior to the Pearl Harbor attack. But remember, the early to mid Century were still very much the era of Empire Building for many countries and we Brits had a fair share of the spoils and carving up other people's lands in the Far East.

But YES, it's not a well remembered conflict, despite the losses and I dare say in time it will be pretty well forgotten and removed from most people's consciousness (as is the Great War, already) - sadly...

all the emphasis is on Europe and the Holocaust. horrific for sure, but I don't see the actions of Imperial Japan as any less horrific. in school the Pacific conflicts were just brushed over, hardly anything was taught about them. certainly nothing about Nanking. it was all about Europe and concentration camps. at least it was pointed out that it was not just Jews, it was also the mentally ill, retarded, gypsies, those brave enough to fight w/ the resistance, etc. too ugly for high school students, perhaps? I wonder if part of it is the attitudes of the survivors or current affairs. I know that that Chinese remember what happened and have their ceremonies, but does the world ignore the history, instead focusing on say current human rights violations of the Chinese? sad if they do, current affairs are no excuse to ignore history. as for the survivors and descendants, do they continue to scream about the injustices or do they insist that the world still owes them something? I'm curious, if anyone has answers please post them

 

[Doublegun]

all the emphasis is on Europe and the Holocaust. horrific for sure, but I don't see the actions of Imperial Japan as any less horrific. in school the Pacific conflicts were just brushed over, hardly anything was taught about them. certainly nothing about Nanking. it was all about Europe and concentration camps. at least it was pointed out that it was not just Jews, it was also the mentally ill, retarded, gypsies, those brave enough to fight w/ the resistance, etc. too ugly for high school students, perhaps? I wonder if part of it is the attitudes of the survivors or current affairs. I know that that Chinese remember what happened and have their ceremonies, but does the world ignore the history, instead focusing on say current human rights violations of the Chinese? sad if they do, current affairs are no excuse to ignore history. as for the survivors and descendants, do they continue to scream about the injustices or do they insist that the world still owes them something? I'm curious, if anyone has answers please post them

You make a very good point HepKitty. Think about it: between the Nazis and the Japanese over 10 MILLION innocent people were killed. There should be plenty of lessons from that number alone.

By any chance did you see HBO's "The Pacific"? It brought a lot of light to the plight of US Marines fighting their way through the PTO but unfortunately, it did not provide much political context or perspective prior to Guadalcanal.

Doublegun

 

[HepKitty]

You make a very good point HepKitty. Think about it: between the Nazis and the Japanese over 10 MILLION innocent people were killed. There should be plenty of lessons from that number alone.

By any chance did you see HBO's "The Pacific"? It brought a lot of light to the plight of US Marines fighting their way through the PTO but unfortunately, it did not provide much political context or perspective prior to Guadalcanal.

Doublegun

the Nazis exterminated 11 million on their own, 6 million Jews and 5 million "undesirables" as they viewed them. does anyone have the numbers on the Chinese victims?

I've not yet seen "the Pacific" but it's on my wish list on Amazon

 

[JimWagner]

Nertz! You and Lizzie beat me to the punch on this one. I'm in the middle of reading A Flying Tiger's Diary written by Charles Bond, MGen (ret). He was one of the original AVG pilots who went to China and it's fascinating reading.

If you're enjoying that I'd highly recommend Stilwell and the American Experience in China, 1911-1945 by Barbara W. Tuchman.

 

[too much coffee]

I believe the mere fact that we dropped the atomic bombs on Japan thereby forcing their hand to surrender is the catylist that has taken away the momentous occasion of the PTO. Automatically, in some circles, it makes the Western allies monsters to cause such horrific destruction and loss of life.
After all, as Paddy pointed out, Japanese expansionism in the Pacific was going on largely unchecked. Who did it affect?......it affected Chinese, Filipino and other Pacific Islanders. Did it matter to the Caucasian race at that time? Only when the Pearl Harbor attack occur, did America wake up to the fact that "Hey, there's a Japanese version of Hitler doing some bad stuff over in Asia." Who did Hitler's conquests touch........it affected most Europeans who had family and decendents in America, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. I submit when the German war machined steamrollered Poland and France, there were a lot of Americans up in arms and begged Roosevelt and the Congress to get involved. Why? Because this was something that was nearer and dearer to their hearts by way of race versus the atrocities in Asia.
Let's face it, until one is affected by something terrible, it usually doesn't mean too much. Just a sad fact of life and I agree with you HepKitty "current affairs are no excuse to ignore history."

 

[HepKitty]

I believe the mere fact that we dropped the atomic bombs on Japan thereby forcing their hand to surrender is the catylist that has taken away the momentous occasion of the PTO. Automatically, in some circles, it makes the Western allies monsters to cause such horrific destruction and loss of life.
After all, as Paddy pointed out, Japanese expansionism in the Pacific was going on largely unchecked. Who did it affect?......it affected Chinese, Filipino and other Pacific Islanders. Did it matter to the Caucasian race at that time? Only when the Pearl Harbor attack occur, did America wake up to the fact that "Hey, there's a Japanese version of Hitler doing some bad stuff over in Asia." Who did Hitler's conquests touch........it affected most Europeans who had family and decendents in America, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. I submit when the German war machined steamrollered Poland and France, there were a lot of Americans up in arms and begged Roosevelt and the Congress to get involved. Why? Because this was something that was nearer and dearer to their hearts by way of race versus the atrocities in Asia.
Let's face it, until one is affected by something terrible, it usually doesn't mean too much. Just a sad fact of life and I agree with you HepKitty "current affairs are no excuse to ignore history."

very good points, thank you. I'm still interested in the Chinese perspective today though, if anyone knows. at the time yes one can see that since the Asian problems didn't affect the Americans of European descent, but what is the excuse now for not putting as much importance on the atrocities in Asia as the ones in Europe? probably the A bombs do overshadow all other incidents in Asia, but weren't the Imperial Japanese atrocities part of the justification for dropping them?

 

[Deleted member 12480]

God bless all of those who fought in the War of Wars. You will never be forgotten.

sorry to butt-in guys, i just love this picture.
xxx

 

[too much coffee]

Gee, maybe someone can come forward and contribute by factually stating the Chinese perspective today on Japanese atrocities and the attempted domination of Asia.

When President Truman decided on the atomic bomb, it was to unconditionally bring the enemy to the peace table, on his knees, and END THE WAR. If this did not happen a land invasion of Japan was imminent and according to Truman's advisors could cost one million American casualties.

I do not think Truman gave much thought to "Japanese atrocities" commited against the Chinese, only to Americans in uniform. Just my speculated opinion of course.

The only reason he didn't order the atomic bombing of North Korea is he knew we could never win that war.

P.S: You're right Annie, GREAT picture!

Regards, coffee

 

[JimWagner]

My wife is Chinese, but her family left mainland China in 1949 while she was young. She really doesn't have any memories of it. Her mother definitely does, but like most people who are from that time she doesn't dwell on it. She's told me some stories about walking hundreds of miles escaping the Japanese, but only when I've asked her directly.

Just like those of us here, most of the living Chinese did not directly experience those times. The years after the war are much more in their minds.

I'd say there's a certain wariness if not outright distrust of the Japanese, regardless of the modern makeover of that country.

But that's at the individual level. I couldn't say at all what the current Chinese government's attitude towards the Japanese is.

 

[HepKitty]

My wife is Chinese, but her family left mainland China in 1949 while she was young. She really doesn't have any memories of it. Her mother definitely does, but like most people who are from that time she doesn't dwell on it. She's told me some stories about walking hundreds of miles escaping the Japanese, but only when I've asked her directly.

Just like those of us here, most of the living Chinese did not directly experience those times. The years after the war are much more in their minds.

I'd say there's a certain wariness if not outright distrust of the Japanese, regardless of the modern makeover of that country.

But that's at the individual level. I couldn't say at all what the current Chinese government's attitude towards the Japanese is.

thank you, that's what I was asking

 

[HepKitty]

God bless all of those who fought in the War of Wars. You will never be forgotten.

sorry to butt-in guys, i just love this picture.
xxx

we all do, check out this thread http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=50909&highlight=edith+shaine

 

[HepKitty]

Gee, maybe someone can come forward and contribute by factually stating the Chinese perspective today on Japanese atrocities and the attempted domination of Asia.


Regards, coffee

wow that sounds really sarcastic. with such a huge world war in question, with so many perspectives, I thought it might be interesting to be let in on one that we don't often hear about. you're probably right about Truman's motives, ending the war to avoid AMERICAN loss of life, but we hear about this already. thank you