Vintage versus modern ´quality´

[Huertecilla]

Buenas Tomasso, I have a date for this evening with a dame who lóves hats. Being female she lóves shopping so she was at first speachless and then a waterfall of enthusiasm about showing me around the hat shops of Málaga.
She added that she was having fun already as she was looking forward to wearing a hat for the occasion as those don´t present themselves that often.
Yes, I will take my camera.
A report on it will be in a separate topic.

On topic I have meanwhile had a great time learning here following threads pointed out to me per pm. I would néver have found them without that help.
as far as I am concerned I have received answer to my question. The answer is that the illustrative material with examples of levels of finish and manufacture ís here, just not organised but thanks to (takes hat off) the help I asked for I am finding it.

 

[Genuine Classic Gangster]

A fedora by its very nature is a fashion accessory and therefore its functionality is of secondary importance. The emotional response the user has to the fedora is the primary concern.

I disagree. I wear fedoras first of all for their functionality - to keep my head warm and/or to keep the sun off of my head. If they did not perform those functions, I would not wear them. I also wear them because they look awesome, but that is of secondary importance, behind their functionality.

 

[Mr.Astor]

Oy vay!

 

[Genuine Classic Gangster]

It is not because there is no way we can avoid the peer thing, brand reputation nor the group think thing of vintage versus modern.

Nothing is wrong with members of a group all thinking the same thing if they are all agreeing on the truth.

The consensus among knowledgeable hat wearers that vintage hats are usually much better than modern hats is the truth.

I also would like what you are asking for in this thread, more hard facts that are readily available, but the difficulty in gathering those facts does not, as your posts seem to imply, translate into the idea that modern hats are on par with vintage hats.

 

[Mr.Astor]

Did a little yellow bus pull up the this forum??? Very distracting, but funny,everybody running around to satisfy one narcissist! I'm outta here! Sorry to all the good people that support this forum. Fedoracentric,wiserhatter,tomasso

 

[-30-]

GENTLEMEN . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAeqVGP-GPM&feature=related

Regards,
JT

 

[Huertecilla]

In my quest to understanding felt quality I have not just contacted shops and workshops but also searched for factories. I found several but óne is both reasonably close by ánd they are willing to receive me.

A stroke of luck is that they do EVERYTHING in house, from felt making to the last details. They buy in the wool and hair and hats come out; like the corned beef cartoon.
Their finest is hare-beaver, hardened with gum from an indian tree and smoothed by hand with sharskin. Dûh.... The only thing lacking is certified extra virgins doing the finishing. No doubt only because there are no longer enough of those about at the age they can work in the factory.

They make branded Stetsons and also the bulk of the hats for the orthodox jews; some 10.000 anually to NY and 2.500 to Israel.
Looking forward to a visit. It is not next door so I will need some time to organise.

 

[CaramelSmoothie]

On the women's side, the price that milliners charge for new hats and "vintage inspired" hats are on par, and in many cases exceed what I can expect to pay for a one of a kind vintage hat. There are milliners charging in the neighborhood of $500 for "vintage inspired" hats. Hell, I can get 3-5 vintage hats that no one in the world may have for that price, it really is a no brainer. In my opinion, the quality of the modern hats just can't beat the original. There is a certain feel and look that they have failed to achieve, can't put my finger on it though. You have given me some food for thought in trying to determine where exactly modern milliners come up short in the quality department. I had never given this a thought.

 

[Huertecilla]

On the women's side, the price that milliners charge for new hats and "vintage inspired" hats are on par, and in many cases exceed what I can expect to pay for a one of a kind vintage hat. There are milliners charging in the neighborhood of $500 for "vintage inspired" hats. Hell, I can get 3-5 vintage hats that no one in the world may have for that price, it really is a no brainer. In my opinion, the quality of the modern hats just can't beat the original. There is a certain feel and look that they have failed to achieve, can't put my finger on it though. You have given me some food for thought in trying to determine where exactly modern milliners come up short in the quality department. I had never given this a thought.

Imo ´vintage inspired´ is cheap shortcut and fancy disguise for ´not enough design creativity to be orignal´.

As to the modern versus vintage there are some aspects complicating comparisons.
One is the definition of quality as modern made hats are in general wáy more consistent in their properties which is equally wáy better quality when one takes thát aspect as priority.
We also tend to look at the vinatge hats which were the best examples of the most pleasing designs.
Lastly the vintage hats are survivors and that is not a randon selection, not a representative selection, whereas we dó have all of modern production available.

That observed there is one solid reason as to why vintage is on average VERY much superior to modern:
Vintage hats are products of a time when things were made to lást.
Modern hats are products of a time when things are made with designed obsolence to ensure consumption, to ensure future business.
WW2 is the watershed. It is when obsolence by design becomes the leitmotive for the US consumption society. It takes well over a decade for Europe to follow suit.

Meanwhile my desktop is starting up again as I have returned from the trip to Granada with picturessssss!!!!!

 

[CaramelSmoothie]

Imo ´vintage inspired´ is cheap shortcut and fancy disguise for ´not enough design creativity to be orignal´.

Or it could be a way of acknowledging that the designs of the past were second to none so they want to give customers a chance to own a Golden Era inspired design without having to do the legwork of going to garage sales, bidding on ebay and searching the web high and low for an original? At least this is how I feel it is for millinery for women. If you want a 1920s cloche you have three options: you either search online,spend hours at garage and estate sales which would be like finding a needle in a haystack or just buy from a milliner who will make a replica for you. The replica is the option with the least amount of hassle for most consumers. Also, creativity is stagnated for women milliners because of the lack of demand as well as modern hairstyles that really don't accommodate a hat.

As to the modern versus vintage there are some aspects complicating comparisons.
One is the definition of quality as modern made hats are in general wáy more consistent in their properties which is equally wáy better quality when one takes thát aspect as priority.
We also tend to look at the vinatge hats which were the best examples of the most pleasing designs.
Lastly the vintage hats are survivors and that is not a randon selection, not a representative selection, whereas we dó have all of modern production available.

I am not an expert on hat making techniques, so it would be difficult for a person such as myself to define quality. Outside of looking at and holding a few in some stores and being thoroughly disappointed in what I have seen so far, as well as perusing ebay and etsy and not being impressed with what I see there as well, it would be hard for me to come up with a "quality score" to rate modern hats vs. vintage hats. It's just that when I see and/or hold a modern hat I just know that something is off, just never thought of what that something was.

That observed there is one solid reason as to why vintage is on average VERY much superior to modern:
Vintage hats are products of a time when things were made to lást.
Modern hats are products of a time when things are made with designed obsolence to ensure consumption, to ensure future business.
WW2 is the watershed. It is when obsolence by design becomes the leitmotive for the US consumption society. It takes well over a decade for Europe to follow suit.

If you think that WWII is when the tide began to turn then you will most certainly agree with many of the sentiments discussed about this time period in this thread: http://www.thefedoralounge.com/show...t-1945-through-1963-as-part-of-the-Golden-Era

In your opinion, what exactly do you think brought about this change of businesses lowering their quality standards?

Meanwhile my desktop is starting up again as I have returned from the trip to Granada with picturessssss!!!!!

Great! Can't wait to see them.

 

[fedoracentric]

See, in my opinion Huertecilla's above comments are wholly uninformed about hats.

Let's just take the misstatements one at a time...

"One is the definition of quality as modern made hats are in general wáy more consistent in their properties which is equally wáy better quality when one takes thát aspect as priority."

"Way better quality"? Absurd. Modern hat makers have far, far fewer types of felt available to make hats from and there is little experimentation with new felts like there was back in the old days as companies that had a LOT of competition tried to make their mark in the industry. Also there were types of felt made then that was of the highest quality that cannot be made today for a host of reasons. Further, some ways of making felt that experts cultivated for centuries have been lost today and won't be coming back any time soon. To assume that today's hats are of better quality is a totally misinformed statement. They may be more consistent, granted, but that is because only a few companies exist that make the raw felt for hat makers to make hats out of. "More consistent" does not necessarily denote higher quality.

"Lastly the vintage hats are survivors and that is not a randon selection.... "

In fact, surviving vintage hats are about as random a selection as you can possibly get as they exist today due to 100% random reasons!

"Vintage hats are products of a time when things were made to lást."

This is not exactly true in the way you think. Some vintage makers made as cheap a product as they could because the ultra cheap hat was their niche market. Those hats were NOT made to last any more than hats today are made to last. So, some vintage survivors may not necessarily be of the "made to last" variety compared to others. But even so, neither hats then nor now are... well, I'll handle that below based on the next misstatement.

"Modern hats are products of a time when things are made with designed obsolence to ensure consumption, to ensure future business."

This is also untrue. No modern major hat label makes their $200 hats so that they will fall apart in a year so that consumers will buy another $200 hat the next year. There is no planned obsolescence in hat making today. In fact, I'd say that there was more planned obsolescence in vintage markets for the simple reason that in the old days fashion made last year's hat out of style this year where today the hat market is not driven by fashion trends to the same degree as the old days. Fashion trends do not churn hat styles in and out of fashion these days like they did in the old days. So, back then fashion was the vehicle for planned obsolescence not quality and that doesn't exist today. But even so, even in the days when fashion was the vehicle to try to cause hat buyers to replace hats frequently, they were never made to fall apart quickly in the same way as the concept of planned obsolescence. That concept just doesn't fit in the hat world.

"WW2 is the watershed. It is when obsolence by design becomes the leitmotive for the US consumption society."

Again, the concept of planned obsolescence is not apropos to hats. Not in the old days (fashion aside), not today.

 

[Lefty]

In only seven days, the student has become the purported teacher.

 

[Huertecilla]

Great! Can't wait to see them.

At your service.

 

[DougC]

Fedoracentric and Lefty...that was funny!

 

[jlee562]

+1 each to fedoracentric and lefty.

Would add other observations, such as that the Stetson Playboy was considered a "cheap" hat. We know, for example, that Stetson's Royal grade felt was their lowest quality fur felt designation. Yet how many vintage Royal Stetsons do we see? I don't know about you, but I find it much easier to find Royals than Imperials, Sovereigns, to say nothing of something like a 5x or 7x hat.

I too have to reject the idea that consistency is a hallmark of quality. Moreover, in the spirit of the first half of the thread, would love to see Hueretecilla's empirical evidence to support the claims that the remaining hats are "survivors" and are not a representative sample. Would love to see the hard data used to make that conclusion.

 

[Huertecilla]

In your opinion, what exactly do you think brought about this change of businesses lowering their quality standards?

Beyond the afficionado stage, when external funding gets involved, businesses are increasingly in the business of making money.
The product becomes predominantly the vehicle to generate it.
The capital investors dictate which course is followed mainly based on the retun on their investment.
When an economic climate chages, all but the niche manufacturers are thus forced to follow the most profitable trend.

When fashion gets outspokenly and thus fast changing applied to industrial design, the product development and replacement goes faster.
The resulting shorter product life time allows for different specifications more aimed at meeting specs than at longivity.
Also shorter product life and lower prices are almost symbiotic on the mass market.

 

[fedoracentric]

Would add other observations, such as that the Stetson Playboy was considered a "cheap" hat. We know, for example, that Stetson's Royal grade felt was their lowest quality fur felt designation. Yet how many vintage Royal Stetsons do we see? I don't know about you, but I find it much easier to find Royals than Imperials, Sovereigns, to say nothing of something like a 5x or 7x hat.

I think the answer to that is in the fact that far more people bought the cheaper hats than the more expensive ones and so more of the lower end hats exist.

We have seen it many times in the antique purchase orders we've seen here. If a dozen Royal grade hats were ordered, invariably the orders for Imperial or 7X was half that or less.

It only makes sense that fewer of the really expensive hats were made and sold because most people just can't afford the price jump. Therefore fewer of the expensive ones still exist because there were fewer in the first place.

(As an aside, I'd suggest we see so many 50s and 60s Stetson 100s because a). the owners really treasured them and so didn't wear them much and b). they came in those really extensive hat boxes--whether the hard cardboard ones of the hard-sided, leather cases--and those boxes helped keep them in great shape.)

 

[Huertecilla]

I
It only makes sense that fewer of the really expensive hats were made and sold because most people just can't afford the price jump. Therefore fewer of the expensive ones still exist because there were fewer in the first place.

It is thus better to look at the %s.
There are more Morris Minors surviving than fifties Ferraris yet the survival rate is more than the inverse of their respective production figures. This applies to all vintage poduct bar the proverbial exception. Hence our view on the past through artefacts is always distorted. This is a HUGE problem in archeology too.

 

[jlee562]

I think the answer to that is in the fact that far more people bought the cheaper hats than the more expensive ones and so more of the lower end hats exist.

We have seen it many times in the antique purchase orders we've seen here. If a dozen Royal grade hats were ordered, invariably the orders for Imperial or 7X was half that or less.

It only makes sense that fewer of the really expensive hats were made and sold because most people just can't afford the price jump. Therefore fewer of the expensive ones still exist because there were fewer in the first place.

(As an aside, I'd suggest we see so many 50s and 60s Stetson 100s because a). the owners really treasured them and so didn't wear them much and b). they came in those really extensive hat boxes--whether the hard cardboard ones of the hard-sided, leather cases--and those boxes helped keep them in great shape.)

Oh, very true. I certainly agree with you that the sample we have is as representative as we're going to get. But many "cheap" hats survived!

 

[mayserwegener]

Stetson (branded) didn't make really low price point hats (for example 25 - 50 cents in the 20s). Stetson lower cost hats were not considered cheap (price wise).