Vintage versus modern ´quality´

[Huertecilla]

Oh, very true. I certainly agree with you that the sample we have is as representative as we're going to get.

That applies to artefacts from the ancient egyptians too, but it doesn´t make then remotely representative for what was in use at the time.

Not the crux of my appearantly offensive ´argument´ though. It is far more important that the economic model in which the hats were meant to make money changed. Thát explains why manufacturers by and large ´chose´ to produce to on average lowered specs.

 

[mayserwegener]

The hat business was in decline (there were up and down times up to WWII) post 1900. At the same time (for the most part) labor and material costs were on the rise. For example it could take up to one month to complete an old Austrian Velour finish. This process was too expensive to sustain so eventually the finish disappears. Some processes created health related issues (workers, people living around the factories) had to modified or done away with. The hat companies had to reduce costs (labor, materials) while sales numbers steadily declined (especially post WWII). Eventually most had to close shop (even the giant Stetson) and the few that survived (for example Borsalino) are shadows of their pasts. By the way I am talking about high quality hat producers.

 

[fedoracentric]

"Stetson lower cost hats were not considered cheap (price wise)."

Also a good point. Stetson was never the el'cheapo hat! Even in the 50s and 60s some makers were selling hats for 5 to 7 bucks where Stetson's cheapest started at $10.

 

[jlee562]

"Stetson lower cost hats were not considered cheap (price wise)."

Also a good point. Stetson was never the el'cheapo hat! Even in the 50s and 60s some makers were selling hats for 5 to 7 bucks where Stetson's cheapest started at $10.

I'm always learning here.....thanks gents!

 

[Tedquinton]

I've just purchased my first vintage hat, a Sak's fifth avenue which I'll post pictures of later. I had always imagined that the perceived greater quality of vintage was perhaps exaggerated. But I really am amazed at the difference in felt between this hat and the winchester beaver hats I own. It's almost like comparing tissue paper with high quality writing paper. Ok perhaps that's slightly over board, but the felt is clearly far denser, more finely pounced, thinner even compared to light weight beaver felt, and is so easy to crease to different styles by dry bashing alone. I also love the 'cav' edge treatment that I understand is no longer available.

I have no idea how representative this hat is as its the only one I've seen in the flesh, but I am really blown away by it. I also don't know if the felt has continued to felt over the years or whether that is how it has always been. But I have gone from being a sceptic to a convert. Vintage really is better in this case at least.

Greg

 

[Joao Encarnado]

If you don't own one, a 7x clear beaver will blown you away.

 

[TheDane]

Joao, on a windy day, any hat with your preferred brim-width would blow me far away lol

 

[Joao Encarnado]

Joao, on a windy day, any hat with your preferred brim-width would blow me far away lol

No if it have a stampede strap

 

[Lotsahats]

I picked up a vintage Royal Stetson a couple of weeks ago, and I've been meaning to do a side-by-side comparison with my new premiere Royal Deluxe Stetsonian, so here we go.

The hats

On the left is a vintage '54-'56 Royal Stetson in a rich chocolate brown. On the left is a new premiere Royal Deluxe Stetsonian in tawny. Each has a 2 3/4" bound brim; the Royal sports a 5 1/2" open crown, and the Stetsonian a 6 1/2" open crown. In terms of silhouette and basic shape, the hats compare quite favorably; Stetson did a very nice job recreating the classic look of its hats from the 50s.

The bows

First, the vintage Royal:

And the new premiere Royal Deluxe Stetsonian:

The vintage Royal's ribbon is an interesting over-lay style, while the premiere Deluxe Stetsonian is a classic bow; both of them, to my eye, offer a nice appearance. The execution of the bow work, however, is different. The vintage Royal has more subtle stitch work; the stitches are less obvious and blend better with the bow, with the premiere Royal Deluxe Stetsonian's stitches are more coarse and obvious. You can see that of the stitching threads has come loose already since November on the Stetsonian.

Tacking stitches on the ribbon

The vintage Royal:

The premiere Royal Deluxe Stetsonian:

Both pictures come from the stitch on the back of the hat. The vintage Royal's stitch is obvious but not quite as deep; the premiere Royal Deluxe Stetsonian's stitching dimples the ribbon significantly. Other tacking stitches in the Stetsonian create even more dimpling, but I wanted to offer the best example from each hat.

Edge binding and felt quality

In each of the shots, the vintage Royal Stetson is on the left, the premiere Royal Deluxe Stetsonian is on the right:

The stitching on the edge binding for the vintage Royal shows small, tight stitches that come right to the outside edge of the binding ribbon; this distance is consistent, as is the stitching. The premiere Royal Deluxe Stetsonian comes with more obvious, less consistent stitching that sometimes strays a bit far from the ribbon. As yet, there is no curling or rising taking place on the premiere Royal Deluxe Stetsonian, but at the same time, there is no chance of such a thing happening on the vintage Royal since the stitching comes right to the edge.

For the felt quality, the vintage Royal offers a flat, even pouncing job; the felt is uniform and short. The premiere Royal Deluxe Stetsonian's pouncing has left the felt feeling longer, and the color is less consistent; you might be able to see almost a nap-type look occurring on the premiere Royal Deluxe. The vintage Royal's felt is thinner than the felt on the premiere Royal Deluxe; while they are different, both hats feel solid and substantial, firm without being stiff.

Sweatbands

The vintage Royal:

The premiere Royal Deluxe Stetsonian:

As I noted on the edge binding, the vintage Royal offers a tighter, smaller set of stitching for the sweatband, while the premiere Royale Deluxe Stetsonian shows a larger, coarser set of stitches. The premiere's stitching isn't as obvious as in the ribbon and the bow, but it is still not quite as refined as the stitching on the vintage Royal. As well, you might note that there is a change occurring in the felt to the right of the sweatband on the premiere Royal Deluxe Stetsonian; the color is lightening and the nap rising a bit.

The vintage Royal was an entry-level hat in its time, a bottom-of-the-range choice; the premiere Royal Deluxe Stetsonian is a step up quality-wise in today's market. Despite this difference, I think the general quality of workmanship goes to the vintage Royal. I still enjoy my premiere Royal Deluxe Stetsonian for its classic lines and vintage feel, and its general quality still stands a mark above the run-of-the-mill contemporary Stetson dress hat; that said, I'm not sure that I'll be purchasing any more new production Stetsons. Of course, being a 7 3/8, I have a bit more choice in vintage hats than do some of my better-endowed colleagues on this board, so going vintage is a luxury for me.

The opinions expressed here are just that--opinions. Your mileage may vary. I hope this comparison was useful!

(cross-posting in Open Crown Stetsons: A Call (Plea) to Retailers!! and Side By Side/ Hat Comparisons)

 

[fedoracentric]

Excellent post, Lots!!

My only observation is to note that sweatbands weren't always sewn in with tighter stitches in the good old days. It depended on the price point of the hat and manufacturer back when. So tightness of the stitches in that area isn't 100% demonstrative. But what a great post and comparison.

 

[Lotsahats]

Fair enough for sure; workmanship varies from hat to hat, as you point out; as a matter of fact, I thought about comparing the Stetsonian to my vintage Knox Hundred, but I thought that might be just flat-out unfair.

A

 

[fedoracentric]

LOL. Totally unfair!

 

[alanfgag]

Excellent post, Lots!!

My only observation is to note that sweatbands weren't always sewn in with tighter stitches in the good old days. It depended on the price point of the hat and manufacturer back when. So tightness of the stitches in that area isn't 100% demonstrative. But what a great post and comparison.

In my experience, the pitch of stitching at the sweatband is a function of era rather than price, with early hats showing more stitches/inch than later ones.

Thanks for the comparison Aaron - nicely done!

Is the open crown height of the Stetson really 6 1/2"? Though I've never handled one, that seems a surprising number.

 

[ManofKent]

Nice comparison Aaron

 

[Lotsahats]

Is the open crown height of the Stetson really 6 1/2"? Though I've never handled one, that seems a surprising number.

That's what the literature says; I'll give it a measure tomorrow.

A

 

[viclip]

That's what the literature says; I'll give it a measure tomorrow.

A

I just re-measured mine, it's indeed 6-1/2" open crown

 

[Brad Bowers]

My Stetsonian has an open-crown height of 5 ⅞". I'm glad it's not 6 ½", as that's far too tall for the look they're trying to achieve, especially with that narrow of hatband, but a ⅝" difference is a pretty sizeable quality-control issue.

Brad

 

[viclip]

The Stetson premiere Stetsonian is "supposed to" have a 6-1/2" crown as per the Del Monico site:

http://www.delmonicohatter.com/product/STSNAN.htm

I measured mine from the kitchen counter top, to the highest point of the popped open crown.

 

[SteveFord]

Apologies in advance if this has been asked a million times before (it probably has).

Is it my imagination or are they really cutting corners on the new hats?
I ask as I just unboxed a new Stetson Biaritz Fur Felt Fedora which is a beautiful hat.
However, the first thing I noticed was just how light it is like they're using the thinnest material possible. Then I noticed that the ribbon was riding up.
My older hats seem to have a bit more heft to them.

Is it just this particular style or are they chintzing out?
I like to support a company but maybe that's not such a bright idea after all.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

Apologies in advance if this has been asked a million times before (it probably has).

Is it my imagination or are they really cutting corners on the new hats?
I ask as I just unboxed a new Stetson Biaritz Fur Felt Fedora which is a beautiful hat.
However, the first thing I noticed was just how light it is like they're using the thinnest material possible. Then I noticed that the ribbon was riding up.
My older hats seem to have a bit more heft to them.

Is it just this particular style or are they chintzing out?
I like to support a company but maybe that's not such a bright idea after all.

I see it differently. Old dress hats were much thinner than hats made today. The old hats (1950s or older) tended to have thinner and denser felt, and the better hats were often very lightweight.

You are absolutely right that QC is lacking: sweatbands, ribbons, liners, etc. are all lower quality. Additionally, the build methods have been simplified to increase efficiency at the expense of quality. Poor ribbon/bow execution is not uncommon. Poor tracking of the ribbon to the hat causing it to ride up is even more common.

I’m unfamiliar with the model you mentioned, but a google search brought up picture a homburg and not a fedora. If you want thick heavy felt you shouldn’t have any problem finding them. If you want thin dense felt and a light moldable hat you really need to look for hats that have celebrated their 60th birthday, or older; hopefully you wear a size conducive to the vintage market.


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