"Vintage" Question

[Kangfish]

Hello everyone! I'm pretty new around here and have a lot to learn. My question is about vintage hats. I read here that the vintage fur felt is better quality than newer stuff. How many years back would one have to go to know that it is "vintage". About when did the quality start to change. I'd like to find a truely vintage hat but don't know "how old is vintage". '40s' 50's '60s? Sorry if this seems like a dumb question and I know there is no cut off date between vintage and new. Thanks - Kangfish

 

[tonyb]

You're entering the realm of the highly subjective, Kangfish.

Me, I say there is such a thing as a high-quality modern hat felt. The all-beaver bodies many custom hatters use qualifies, as do some blends. There's even some pretty nice stuff coming out of the large manufacturing plants (the all-beaver Stetsons come to mind -- although I'm not crazy about their style -- and I've handled a new Milano brand hat at a local Western wear shop that was quite nice).

There were some crummy hats made back 50 and more years ago. But, as a rule, the garden-variety hats of yore were indeed better than their modern counterparts. It's a difference more apparent to the touch than the eye, often.

 

[avedwards]

I agree with Tonyb but would add that the average hat then was better than the average hat today. To meet their average hats then you have to get todays top quality ones. Someone mentioned on a similar thread (something about custom hats or vintage hats) that yesterday's rabbit felt is today's beaver felt, as only beaver felt can do what used to be done to rabbit. And any hat which has survived since then must have been good to survive that long, so any vintage hat which you buy these days is likely to be good quality.

As for the cut off point, at a guess I would say that it would be when hats stopped being worn as everyday items, so maybe the late '60s to early '70s.

Btw, the fact that today's rabbit is not as good as it used to be does not mean that it isn't good. Akubra use rabbit felt hats and on this forum most regard them as the best modern off the rack hatmaker. And my Stetson Chatham survived it's first real downpour yesterday, so modern Stetson's can't be too bad either, contrary to some people's opinion on other threads.

 

[feltfan]

A lot has been written on this here. If you're curious,
I recommend the search feature.

Off the top of my head...
You might look up when hat makers had to stop using
mercury (~1930). You might look up when the Borsalino name
was sold (~1980). Familiarize yourself with brands that,
on the whole, made great hats and stopped around when
things went bad (Mallory, Stevens, Cavanagh, etc).

avedwards has it right- when the market went away, so
did the average quality of hats. Beyond that, you need to
learn a bit about what to look for.

 

[tonyb]

Keep in mind also that quality can vary quite a bit within a brand and even within a particular model. For example, I happen to have one vintage Dobbs Westward that's a nice enough hat, and another of what I believe is approximately the same vintage that isn't.

Back when there was a huge demand for hats the big manufacturers sometimes offered the same styles at different grades and, hence, different prices. That's one explanation. Another might be the vagaries of hat-making. Factory processes might make for greater consistency than custom making does, but even in such an automated system there is some variance. Not all rabbit (or beaver) fur is equal, for instance. Dye can vary from batch to batch. Et cetera.

 

[MattJH]

I'd agree that the "vintage" moniker is a personal thing more than anything else. I can say that, for me, anything from 1959 and earlier is true vintage. The 60's are sort of the grey, limbo area, where I'd use vintage sparingly depending upon the hat's qualities (felt, leather sweatband, bow treatment, wind cord, etc.). Anything from the 70's I just consider "old" (or, very often, ugly! ) and from the 80's onward I consider "used," basically. This will differ from person to person.

 

[Kangfish]

Thanks for all the input. I see it written and hear people talk about vintage things like from the 70s or so and to me that just wasn't that long ago.(Telling my age a bit I guess). I have a couple of Stetsons that feel good to me. One is a Saxon which I know they still make and the other is a Royal Stetson Ivy League which I know was bought at a local men's wear store that went out of business probably 20 or 30 years ago. The original price tag was still there and it said $70.00 Seems like a lot for a hat that long ago. But what do I know? I'm just a rookie at this. Thanks again. - Kangfish

 

[Kangfish]

I failed to mention in my last reply that I also have a Dobbs (don't know what it's called) but while it does feel pretty good it doesn't feel as good to me as either of the Stetsons. Seems thicker but softer kind of like a newer Scala that I have but a little better. Both are fur felt. By the way, one of the Stetsons (the Saxon) is marked fur felt and the other is not marked but they feel pretty much the same.

 

[avedwards]

Vintage hats are not marked as fur felt as it was automatically assumed they would be fur I think. But modern hats are marked as such because there are a lot of wool hats too these days, though these are more meant as fashion accessories than head shelters.

 

[The Elizans]

Different grades, same style/model

Back when there was a huge demand for hats the big manufacturers sometimes offered the same styles at different grades and, hence, different prices. That's one explanation. Another might be the vagaries of hat-making. Factory processes might make for greater consistency than custom making does, but even in such an automated system there is some variance. Not all rabbit (or beaver) fur is equal, for instance. Dye can vary from batch to batch. Et cetera.

I am solely a vintage collector. I have top-of-the range 1930's hats with the finest linings and sweatbands... and some pretty basic wool felts from the same period too! As with anything, old doesn't always mean good. Style wise, I think old hats have the upper hand, but quality was still variable and back then as today, you get what you pay for. Oddly, In the UK, age is the discerning factor regarding the price of vintage apparel, not quality. For example I picked up a boxed 1930's Dunn last week, moth eaten and pretty grubby and in a fairly modest construction, I had to pay £45 for it- its fantastically styled though (like the hat bottom left)! However, I bought an equally dashing finest fur 1930's Battersby Ambassador from the same seller on another occasion, unboxed for just £30. Seems antique dealers know little about quality but are more concerned with the added value of age and historical provenance.

Below is an excerpt from a Dunn & Co Catalogue circa 1933. Look at all the price points for the styles illustrated; something for the very rich right down to the very humble. You will learn to identify quality as you handle more hats. I'd say 30's-50's was the best period for classic styling. The ‘stingy’ brim (narrow) became popular in the 1960's and many great names were wound up or amalgamated in the 60's.

 

[tonyb]

Now thems some fine-lookin' lids, Elizans. Tall, full, straight-sided crowns, modest brim widths, wide ribbons. It's not that other varieties don't have their own appeal, but to my eyes those are the apex of hat styles, or close to it, anyway.

I'm guessing that the "Public Enemies" flick coming out this summer will spark renewed interest in late 1920s/early '30s hat styles. Fine by me. I certainly wouldn't be the first to speculate that among the factors contributing to the demise of the hat in Joe Average's wardrobe was that the styles went downhill as time went on, and toward the end that decline accelerated to the point that, by the mid 1960s or so, they just didn't appeal much anymore. Those short, tapered crowns and narrow brims work for some guys, but not many.

So, it's not just that the old hats were generally better made, they were generally better looking too.

 

[Dewhurst]

The truth is that there are good and bad examples of both bespoke and production hats from any time period you wish to concentrate on. There may be some small space for generalities, but not much.

There are amazing hats being made today, just like there were during periods we often refer to as "vintage". There was crud being made then, as well as now.

 

[Inusuit]

"Vintage"

Be advised if you're shopping on E-bay for a hat, many sellers call their hats "vintage" with no idea when the hat was manufactured.

 

[gtdean48]

I bought an ebay listed "vintage" Stetson that turned out to be 1999. That is not really vintage at all & the date was stamped behind the sweatband clear as can be. Live & Learn!

 

[HarpPlayerGene]

Hello Kangfish,

You really got us all goin' on this one. Cool.

I agree with other entries here and TonyB sums it up best about not only generally higher quality being the norm in the Golden Era but more appealing styling too, as compared with factory made & finished fedoras today. The same goes for cars, furniture, shirts, shoes and many other things in my opinion.

I've recently toured a factory wherein they make the fur felt (raw) hat bodies that are supplied to some other hat makers - both commercial and custom - for blocking and finishing into fedoras, westerns and military and law enforcement covers.

The owner of this facility addressed your issue right up front before he led us on a tour and he takes umbrage at the notion that "vintage felt" is better than what his crew manufactures today. However, he also admitted that rabbit fur IS different now because it is not harvested from wild rabbits - and he conceded that over the course of decades fur felt mellows and becomes denser and softer as the fibers continue to knit up with each other at a microscopic level. This process is known in the trade as the material "dying" (as in death) or "the felting in process".

So, for instance, what I get from that is that it's possible that modern full beaver fur felt hats are the same quality now as they were sixty and seventy years ago. But for the truly fairest comparison of a new one to a 1940 model, you'd need to check on the modern hat in around the year 2078.

 

[CRH]

... - and he conceded that over the course of decades fur felt mellows and becomes denser and softer as the fibers continue to knit up with each other at a microscopic level. This process is known in the trade as the material "dying" (as in death) or "the felting in process"....

I can see that happening in a two year old had that has been worn hard. The felt is much smoother than when new and has shrunk a bit and has developed some additional taper.

 

[HarpPlayerGene]

I can see that happening in a two year old had that has been worn hard. The felt is much smoother than when new and has shrunk a bit and has developed some additional taper.

That's true. The fascinating thing is that the Golden Era hats were - for the most part - able to felt in without the noticeable taper. [huh]

 

[Brad Bowers]

Something to keep in mind:

In the Golden Era, hat companies aged their felted hat bodies before finishing them out, which is probably something that isn't done in today's market.

Crofut & Knapp let their bodies age at least six months in storage before making a hat. Stetson and Borsalino also did this.

Brad

 

[CRH]

...The fascinating thing is that the Golden Era hats were - for the most part - able to felt in without the noticeable taper. [huh]

That speaks volumes right there.

The particular hat I'm referring too will be getting a referb based on skills that I have learned here on the lounge. I'm in the process of gathering tools.

 

[tonyb]

Something to keep in mind:

In the Golden Era, hat companies aged their felted hat bodies before finishing them out, which is probably something that isn't done in today's market.

Crofut & Knapp let their bodies age at least six months in storage before making a hat. Stetson and Borsalino also did this.

Brad

Perhaps this shines some additional light on Gene's observation about vintage hats "felting in" without much noticeable taper. Might it be that the felt in the vintage lids that have survived in such good condition "died" a quiet, peaceful death, having been spared many of the factors (rain, excessive heat, etc.) that contribute to felt shrinkage? The hats that saw rough use got dirty and worn out and thrown away, whereas a disproportionate number of the surviving examples got little (if any) wear and were carefully stored away. And then hats went out of fashion almost entirely and those still like-new lids were left in storage, where they aged away for decade after decade.