"Vintage" Question

[CRH]

...Might it be that the felt in the vintage lids that have survived in such good condition "died" a quiet, peaceful death, having been spared many of the factors (rain, excessive heat, etc.) that contribute to felt shrinkage? The hats that saw rough use got dirty and worn out and thrown away, whereas a disproportionate number of the surviving examples got little (if any) wear and were carefully stored away. And then hats went out of fashion almost entirely and those still like-new lids were left in storage, where they aged away for decade after decade.

Sounds very likely to me.

 

[Kangfish]

Thanks guys for all the info and advice. I do know to be carefull with ebay. I think if it's been sitting around long enough to get dusty it's 'vintage' to some of them. I'd love to have another real nice vintage hat but I think my next one will be a new Akubra. Maybe two. One to wear and one to put away, age and let the felt die the 'slow quiet death'. Only problem is with my luck I'll go first and never get to wear it!

 

[HarpPlayerGene]

Yes, yes. TonyB, I think the way you stated it is probably right on. It was in front of me the whole time but I didn't think about it until you put it the way you did. I think you summed up the right set of 'ingredients'.

 

[tonyb]

Thanks guys for all the info and advice. I do know to be carefull with ebay. I think if it's been sitting around long enough to get dusty it's 'vintage' to some of them. I'd love to have another real nice vintage hat but I think my next one will be a new Akubra. Maybe two. One to wear and one to put away, age and let the felt die the 'slow quiet death'. Only problem is with my luck I'll go first and never get to wear it!

Ever the optimist, eh?

You're right to be skeptical of eBay sellers' portrayals. I like to think that most of them don't deliberately mislead; they just don't know diddly about hats. The good news, for those still with a job or some other reliable source of income, is that prices for vintage hats (and lots of other old stuff) are generally lower than they were just a few months ago.

You've come to the right place for information on what to look for (and avoid) in vintage lids. I'm guessing you'll find good deals, along with the seemingly inevitable (moth-eaten, ill-fitting, etc., etc.) disappointments.

Hard to go wrong with those Akubras ordered from Australian sellers, though. I hear you can get 'em for less than a hundred bucks delivered, thanks to the exchange rate. For a wearin' in all kinds of weather hat, that sounds tough to beat.

 

[feltfan]

Perhaps this shines some additional light on Gene's observation about vintage hats "felting in" without much noticeable taper. Might it be that the felt in the vintage lids that have survived in such good condition "died" a quiet, peaceful death, having been spared many of the factors (rain, excessive heat, etc.) that contribute to felt shrinkage? The hats that saw rough use got dirty and worn out and thrown away, whereas a disproportionate number of the surviving examples got little (if any) wear and were carefully stored away. And then hats went out of fashion almost entirely and those still like-new lids were left in storage, where they aged away for decade after decade.

I still don't buy this theory. I have and have seen lots of hats
that were treated very badly in the old days but have survived
to this day without much taper. I think it's safe to assume the
majority of them saw a fair amount of rain. Did anyone see this
hat Dinerman posted today?

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showpost.php?p=767121&postcount=3320

Not much taper, but plenty of damage and signs of a rough life.
It is possible that felting was done better, perhaps using a better
processs, better chemicals (if not for the workers or environment),
or with more skill. More likely most felt made today just isn't made
well. That's not meant to refer to the 100% beaver that people like Art
Fawcett use, from Winchester.

Mostly I don't buy it because I have collected enough vintage
items of all descriptions to know that one cannot generalize about
the treatment and condition of all surviving examples of anything.

 

[Dewhurst]

More likely most felt made today just isn't made
well.

I doubt it.

 

[Lefty]

 

[feltfan]

What, there's no emoticon showing bait?

 

[Lefty]

the closest I've got

 

[tonyb]

I still don't buy this theory. I have and have seen lots of hats
that were treated very badly in the old days but have survived
to this day without much taper. I think it's safe to assume the
majority of them saw a fair amount of rain.


Mostly I don't buy it because I have collected enough vintage
items of all descriptions to know that one cannot generalize about
the treatment and condition of all surviving examples of anything.

Anyone else detect a contradiction here?

I ain't in love with the theory, but I propose that it's still worthy of consideration. And I wouldn't say of those well-used old hats in one breath that's "I think it's safe to assume that most of them saw a fair amount of rain" and in the next propose "that one cannot generalize about the treatment and condition of all surviving examples of anything." Make a generalization, and then caution others against generalizing?

I was in no way generalizing about ALL surviving examples. Nor were you, for that matter. But please, your exceptions might be received a bit more kindly if you took greater pains not to misrepresent what another person said.

 

[tonyb]

Might it also be that hats were far likelier to get reblocked back when there were still plenty of shops performing that service? That all-beaver felt many custom hat makers use these days is good stuff, but I've seen even it shrink and taper. Part of that may be because it wasn't handled as well as it might have been by the hatter. And part of it might be because that's just what felt is prone to doing. But the taper can indeed be taken out by reblocking.

I'd like to know more about the "aging" process once used by the large manufacturers -- the conditions under which that aging took place, and what it was hoped would be accomplished by it. I assume that it was to allow for whatever additional "felting in" was likely to occur to happen before the bodies were blocked, and therefore make for hats likelier to hold their shapes longer. Could there be any other reason?

 

[J.T.Marcus]

Perhaps this shines some additional light on Gene's observation about vintage hats "felting in" without much noticeable taper. Might it be that the felt in the vintage lids that have survived in such good condition "died" a quiet, peaceful death, having been spared many of the factors (rain, excessive heat, etc.) that contribute to felt shrinkage? The hats that saw rough use got dirty and worn out and thrown away, whereas a disproportionate number of the surviving examples got little (if any) wear and were carefully stored away. And then hats went out of fashion almost entirely and those still like-new lids were left in storage, where they aged away for decade after decade.

I still don't buy this theory. I have and have seen lots of hats that were treated very badly in the old days but have survived
to this day without much taper. I think it's safe to assume the
majority of them saw a fair amount of rain...Mostly I don't buy it because I have collected enough vintage items of all descriptions to know that one cannot generalize about the treatment and condition of all surviving examples of anything.

Don't forget that all hats started out as felt cones (hoods, or hat blanks). A cone is tapered. When the hat was made, it was blocked into a different shape. That new shape may have eliminated some, or all, of the cone's original taper. The question then becomes, "If the hat gets wet, will it return to its original cone (tapered) shape?" In my experience, I haven't seen much evidence of that. I routinely dunk (some would say "baptize" ) all of my hats in cold water. Even before I got my split dome stretcher, and had to do all the "blocking" by hand, I don't recall ever noticing a huge change in taper, once the hat dried. I have concluded that, whether a vintage hat has a straight sided crown or a tapered crown depends mostly on one of two factors. Either (1) It was made that way, or (2) an owner shaped it that way, himself.

But, don't take my word for it. Consider these pictures from the Spanish-American war. That war lasted less than four months, in 1898. That means all the hats shown in photographs, from that action, are relatively new! Yet we see some with straight crowns, and some with tapered crowns.

Note the date on that last picture. These guys were still in boot camp. The war had not even started. Yet, some hats have straight sided crowns, and some are tapered.

Finally, since you probably watch THE HAT CHANNEL (TCM), keep your eyes open for tapered crowns showing up in "vintage" movies. You'll be amazed how many there are!

 

[gtdean48]

Might it also be that hats were far likelier to get reblocked back when there were still plenty of shops performing that service? That all-beaver felt most custom hat makers use these days is good stuff, but I've seen even it shrink and taper. Part of that may be because it wasn't handled as well as it might have been by the hatter. And part of it might be because that's just what felt is prone to doing. But the taper can indeed be taken out by reblocking.

Watching my grandfather until he passed when I was 21, I know his hat got TLC that kept returning them to a very nice condition. I have 1 that since his passing got neglected that faded, tapered, & shrank. I think it is like the existing vintage cars. Some are here in great condition because they were well maintained but used as well, some were pampered & not really put thru the paces, & some are restorations of ones that were abused. As somebody stated earlier, they may have cured the felt longer which led to less shrinkage post production. Getting product out for the cash flow could be effecting that aspect of percieved felt quality.

 

[Dinerman]

But, don't take my word for it. Consider these pictures from the Spanish-American war. That war lasted less than four months, in 1898. That means all the hats shown in photographs, from that action, are relatively new! Yet we see some with straight crowns, and some with tapered crowns.

Note the date on that last picture. These guys were still in boot camp. The war had not even started. Yet, some hats have straight sided crowns, and some are tapered.

What you are seeing in the pictures has everything to do with creasing and nothing to do with taper.

Look at the creases. They are all different. A deep, narrow center dent and side dents will cause a "tapered" shape when viewed from the front regardless of the amount of taper of the blocking. A shallower crease, a wider crease or shallower side dents will cause a less tapered look from the front.

 

[tonyb]

In my experience, I haven't seen much evidence of that. I routinely dunk (some would say "baptize" ) all of my hats in cold water. Even before I got my split dome stretcher, and had to do all the "blocking" by hand, I don't recall ever noticing a huge change in taper, once the hat dried. I have concluded that, whether a vintage hat has a straight sided crown or a tapered crown depends mostly on one of two factors. Either (1) It was made that way, or (2) an owner shaped it that way, himself.)

I'm confident you're offering only what your experience has told you is so, JT. But I can tell you that my experience differs. I've seen many a hat taper after getting some "real world" use. And, as far as I'm concerned, not enough of that real world use for it to show as much as it does, often.

 

[J.T.Marcus]

I'm confident you're offering only what your experience has told you is so, JT. But I can tell you that my experience differs. I've seen many a hat taper after getting some "real world" use. And, as far as I'm concerned, not enough of that real world use for it to show as much as it does, often.

Don't get me wrong. I've seen "some" increase in taper, just not "much."

 

[tonyb]

Don't get me wrong. I seen "some" increase in taper, just not "much."

Well, there we go then, eh, JT?

Your subsequent observation about the amount of taper seen in the hats in those old movies leads me to wonder how much of that was due to felt shrinkage, and how much to the way the crowns were creased, or how tapered the crowns may have been when the hats were first made.

Fedoras are an increasingly common sight out here. (They're still far from being a part of most men's wardrobes, but it's not unusual to see a guy or three in a hat at the supermarket, say, or the hardware store.) And most of those lids are either cheap wool felts or lower-end fur felts. Almost all have lower and more tapered crowns than most of us here seem to prefer, and almost all have that stamped-in-at-the-factory crown shaping. In other words, I see many more officially licensed Indiana Jones hats than Akubra Federations.

 

[feltfan]

Nevermind- comment deleted. Not goin' there.

 

[tonyb]

Nevermind- comment deleted. Not goin' there.

Sounds like a good idea to me.

 

[avedwards]

As for taper, my Stetson Chatham (I mentioned this on another thread too) did not taper at all when I was caught in a downpour a few days ago. Considering that modern Stetson is heavily criticised by some (me too until I saw the evidence that my Chatham is actually quite good). This shows that modern hats can still be good, even if they are not as good as vintage ones.