Vintage, gender, sexuality and me (a disjointed ramble)

[Black Prince]

(Okay, although I think I've got a reasonable grasp of what is and isn't acceptable here in terms of subject matter, I may have misjudged things - in which case I've no problems with the bartenders doing what they do.)

I suppose this is part introduction thread and part meander through a number of (what I see as) overlapping topics. I've been here maybe four, five months, having stumbled across the place on a Googlesearch for, I think, either 'Belstaff' or 'Aero Leathers'. First impressions (of the Jacket forum, particularly) were a sort of geeky delight in finding somewhere where people talked knowledgeably and enthusiastically about classic clothing in the sort of exacting, bordering-on-obsessive detail that made me feel simultaneously awed and right at home. While not unequivocally into vintage per se, I've always found myself attracted to smart, retro-styled clothing - motorcycle gear in particular, but also double-breasted suits, overcoats, gloves, etc. - and the more I learn here, the more I feel myself pulled down the vintage route...

I've posted a little and read quite a lot of the forum archives. I think I approached the Fedora Lounge with a certain amount of apprehension, partly because I'm aware that people here dwarf me in terms of specialist knowledge, experience and number of hats )) - but also because I'm fairly openly gay and I thought that might be an issue. I'm not sure why I thought that; possibly I assumed that a liking for '1940s values' would map onto (what I think of as) 1940s attitudes to homosexuality.

With hindsight, that probably says more about my prejudices than anything else. Generally speaking, I've found the discussions here on vintage and what it says about gender expression absolutely fascinating, the metrosexuality thread being a case in point. On, ooh, 95% of online message boards, that sort of intelligent, nuanced discussion of masculinity wouldn't be possible. I really appreciate the fact that, for the large part, male posters here are confident enough not to become defensive about their (arguably 'dandyish') love of clothing detail or attempt to define their 'authentic' maleness in spurious opposition to gay men.

Living in London, one sees a variety of gay 'tribes', which intersect and overlap to varying degrees. I'm always a little surprised that I don't see more people taking on a vintage look. After all, gay culture has a history of taking on and fetishising masculine archetypes (bikers, 'clones', skinheads, 'bears', etc.), sometimes veering into hypermasculine parody. It seems to me that the well-defined male clothing styles of the 1940s would be absolutely ripe for such cultural approximation. That doesn't seem to be the case, though: there are occasional clubs for guys specifically into suits but, to my knowledge, nothing specifically vintage.

That said, there seems to be more interest in vintage within the trans/genderqueer community. Earlier this year, Transfabulous hosted Strictly Bona Ballroom as part of LGBT History Month, an event aimed at "L, G, B or T, fruit of the forest or your own special creation" (ie. anyone, really), in the 1930s deco Camden Centre. I was in Venice at the time and couldn't go, but it looked like it might've been interestingly vintage, or at least retro in style.

My own experience of vintage on the gay scene has been via a particular club, Duckie. Hosted by the lovely Amy Lamé (herself no stranger to old-style glamour), it's a sort of dance-cum-cabaret venue. It regularly features burlesque, which is currently enjoying something of a renaissance in London.

Anyway, maybe a couple of months ago, at Duckie, I saw a guy in his early thirties wearing a mid-brown fedora hat which, even to my untutored eye, looked magnificent. I went up and complimented him on it, asking what kind of hat it was and where he'd got it. A Borsalino, apparently (meant nothing to me at the time), which he'd picked up in a shop in Paris. Later, I Googled 'Borsalino' and, lo and behold, ended up back here again.

So... that's my big old ramble. If you've persevered through all of that, well done. I guess it's all a rather roundabout way of saying I like it here.

 

[Fletch]

Generally speaking, I've found the discussions here on vintage and what it says about gender expression absolutely fascinating, the metrosexuality thread being a case in point. On, ooh, 95% of online message boards, that sort of intelligent, nuanced discussion of masculinity wouldn't be possible.

As is true in 95% of real life, I suspect. The average guy probably wouldn't know where to begin, so the conversation would be controlled by a fringe element of ax grinders.

[...]gay culture has a history of taking on and fetishising masculine archetypes (bikers, 'clones', skinheads, 'bears', etc.), sometimes veering into hypermasculine parody. It seems to me that the well-defined male clothing styles of the 1940s would be absolutely ripe for such cultural approximation.

It could be that the (civilian) style of the time was so widespread, and yet so subtle, that it was better defined as a "look" than as a "role." Who are you at first look in a 60 year old suit with a slightly high waist and moderately big shoulders? You could be a detective or a gangster or a jazz musician, but you could just as easily be a school teacher or a salesman or a milkman on his day off. The only parody you could pull out of that look is the zoot suit, and that's too loaded with ethnic signifiers to have any gender meaning beyond just "male."

Stereotypes persist, tho, about any man who "reifies" (a $10 word meaning "makes a thing out of") clothes. I was cautioned as a kid by overly protective parents (with a good number of gay friends, no less) to watch out for predatory older men when shopping for vintage duds. (Never met a one, I should say.)

 

[Black Prince]

As is true in 95% of real life, I suspect. The average guy probably wouldn't know where to begin, so the conversation would be controlled by a fringe element of ax grinders.

True. I'm not sure whether the difference here reflects a lower proportion of axe grinders (as I say, I rather suspected a different, more strident sort of conservatism might prevail) or diligent bartending. Whichever, I'm glad of it.

It could be that the (civilian) style of the time was so widespread, and yet so subtle, that it was better defined as a "look" than as a "role." Who are you at first look in a 60 year old suit with a slightly high waist and moderately big shoulders? You could be a detective or a gangster or a jazz musician, but you could just as easily be a school teacher or a salesman or a milkman on his day off. The only parody you could pull out of that look is the zoot suit, and that's too loaded with ethnic signifiers to have any gender meaning beyond just "male."

Yes, I see that. I'm not certain a 'role' (rather than a more nebulous/pervasive 'look') is pivotal to gay cultural introjection of particular archetypes, though: the 'clone' look of the '80s was vaguely outdoorsy but not tied to a particularly macho occupation (lumberjack, at a push, I guess). It's an interesting point, though; I'm not at all sure what governs which masculine tropes are taken up by gay culture and which aren't.

Stereotypes persist, tho, about any man who "reifies" (a $10 word meaning "makes a thing out of") clothes. I was cautioned as a kid by overly protective parents (with a good number of gay friends, no less) to watch out for predatory older men when shopping for vintage duds. (Never met a one, I should say.)

Hah! I guess that ties in with some of the themes of the metrosexuality thread: there are certain widespread cultural ideas regarding how much care over one's clothing/appearance is too much care over one's appearance. When one is perceived to have crossed that boundary, one's gender expression and sexuality are perceived to be open to question. As you say, it's a powerful stereotype - but one which has hopefully been eroded by the relatively recent acceptability of male interest in clothing and grooming. One expression of that is our much-maligned metrosexual. Another, arguably, is an exacting love of vintage detail.

 

[dakotanorth]

Related, but on a tangent.

On, ooh, 95% of online message boards, that sort of intelligent, nuanced discussion of masculinity wouldn't be possible. I really appreciate the fact that, for the large part, male posters here are confident enough not to become defensive about their (arguably 'dandyish') love of clothing detail or attempt to define their 'authentic' maleness in spurious opposition to gay men.

fftopic: I'm not really adding to the discussion, I apologize for that, but this struck a chord in my mind that I see all the time:
Comedians study society, culture, current events- that's where they get their supply of new material. The comedians who have been around for 10,15,20 years seem to notice a trend- the Anti-Intellectualism has grown, at least in the US, since right about 1980. Reading isn't cool, classical music is, well, "Gay" (Sorry, I'm quoting), foul language is better than 10c words, etc. A great movie that reflects on this is "Idiocracy" by Mike Judge. It's a comedy but it really makes you look at, well, the sheer GARBAGE that people buy into.
I should add, over the past 10 years roughly, America has really taken on this "Butch" flair; Tatoos everywhere, bikers are glorified, war is "Cool", etc etc. It makes me sick quite honestly.

 

[Black Prince]

Comedians study society, culture, current events- that's where they get their supply of new material. The comedians who have been around for 10,15,20 years seem to notice a trend- the Anti-Intellectualism has grown, at least in the US, since right about 1980. Reading isn't cool, classical music is, well, "Gay" (Sorry, I'm quoting), foul language is better than 10c words, etc. A great movie that reflects on this is "Idiocracy" by Mike Judge. It's a comedy but it really makes you look at, well, the sheer GARBAGE that people buy into.
I should add, over the past 10 years roughly, America has really taken on this "Butch" flair; Tatoos everywhere, bikers are glorified, war is "Cool", etc etc. It makes me sick quite honestly.

I dunno. One the one hand, I can see what you're saying - to a certain extent, anyway. I do think there's a fairly pervasive anti-intellectual streak to a lot of popular culture. It's evident on this side of the Atlantic too, depending what film and television one watches and what newspapers one reads.

On the other hand, I'm not sure that it wasn't ever thus. I'm in my late thirties. Talking to my sixteen year old neice, I can't help thinking she's woefully underinformed on (what I would consider) the classics of English literature. She is, however, effortlessly conversant with communication technology that baffles me entirely. It may be the case that different generations value different expressions of intelligence. I have a sneaking suspicion that my father bemoaned the dumbing down of modern youth, and his father before him...

I also think it's important that, in expressing these sorts of sentiments, we try to avoid making overly broad generalisations which stereotype others on the basis of appearance and presentation. Tattoos and motorcycles are not, in and of themselves, evidence of a lack of intellect, and one might have fairly complex reasons for finding (a given) war 'cool'.

 

[Black Prince]

Actually, thinking about it, I can remember fedoras being popular within the London gay scene maybe five, six years ago, in response to the overnight success of the Scissor Sisters. Initially, their bassist, Babydaddy was never seen without a trilby:

Actually, their first video had a vaguely retro vibe, and briefly popularised butcher-boy style caps as well as hats...

 

[Baron Kurtz]

I think you've noticed what is relatively strange about this place. Apart from a very few lapses (which were worse in the past) views about other people's personal lives are not expressed here. Unlike other internet sites, trolls, flamers and just plain old rude people are shunned and banned from this one.

There will be - amongst our members and lurkers alike - those like you, those who despise you for who you are or your sexuality (Burn in Hell-types), certainly those who have very strong opinions about your (generic 'you') wardrobe, those who just don't care, and all variations in between . . . whatever . . . part of being a gentleman is (to steal an old slogan) to just be nice. Mostly we manage to maintain the even kilter.

bk

 

[dakotanorth]

Good points, plus more!

I dunno. One the one hand, I can see what you're saying - to a certain extent, anyway. I do think there's a fairly pervasive anti-intellectual streak to a lot of popular culture. It's evident on this side of the Atlantic too, depending what film and television one watches and what newspapers one reads.

On the other hand, I'm not sure that it wasn't ever thus. I'm in my late thirties. Talking to my sixteen year old neice, I can't help thinking she's woefully underinformed on (what I would consider) the classics of English literature. She is, however, effortlessly conversant with communication technology that baffles me entirely. It may be the case that different generations value different expressions of intelligence. I have a sneaking suspicion that my father bemoaned the dumbing down of modern youth, and his father before him...

I also think it's important that, in expressing these sorts of sentiments, we try to avoid making overly broad generalisations which stereotype others on the basis of appearance and presentation. Tattoos and motorcycles are not, in and of themselves, evidence of a lack of intellect, and one might have fairly complex reasons for finding (a given) war 'cool'.

Ah, yes, good point- tattoos and bikers aren't necessarily indicative of anything. However, I think these, Plus countless others, including the lack of interest in classics, do suggest a general trend. To contrast, if society read Shakespeare, took up oil painting, restored Antiques, but had tattoos from head-to-toe, I wouldn't think much of it.
What I'm driving at, is all of these things COMBINED suggest a shift, a trend, a movement. Pop culture can't sell something that people already own, so it must continue to push on with "New" things. The breadcrumb trail of "New" as taken us in a direction that really doesn't, in general, express people's better qualities. America's cynicism and thirst for "shock value" seems to feed this progression too. It's all a big feedback loop, the "Chicken and the Egg" debate, but overall it just seems.... easier, to go with the flow than to stop and resist it. Yes I'm rather skeptical about all of it- I see the true potential Americans have, but I also see the gaping chasm between that and the current state.

 

[griffer]

...Unlike other internet sites, trolls, flamers and just plain old rude people are shunned and banned from this one...

And for the record, I know BK is using the internet definition of 'flamer', as in one who picks fights on message boards, not in any other pejorative sense.



On topic, I would hope that truly masculine, classic style is independent of sexuality, and more a reflection of ones personal identity.

With that said, though, clothes are our plumage and the 'tribes', of any persuasion, always differentiate by defining the 'others'.

On another note, I too am surprised that I don't see more 1940s vintage looks in the gay community. We live in a very gay art community, and we are surrounded by antique shops- yes, stereotypes writ large. Yet, those gay men who dress- and to counter the stereotype I see so many gay slobs- often dress trendy and current. Maybe its a way to hold on to youth?

I know I started wearing fedoras and smoking a pipe (tobacco) in college. An affectation, but it became me, along with bow ties, pocket squares and what not, because, it seemed, I couldn't wait to leave behind angsty youth and be 'settled' and comfortable with myself as a middle aged man.

Our community is so small, and my hat wearing so consistent, that I actually I am actually asked by people who recognize me why I am NOT wearing a hat.

Oh, and not that it matters, but for context I am a happily married hetero who pictures himself a 60 year old southern dandy...with guns...and tattoos...and trucks. Just the other night, my wife;s friend noted exasperatedly that no one would expect such a well dressed guy to be packing a switch blade, much less pull it open a beer.

(Methinks the lady doth protest too much)

 

[Black Prince]

And for the record, I know BK is using the internet definition of 'flamer', as in one who picks fights on message boards, not in any other pejorative sense.

Hahahahh, that hadn't even occurred to me!

 

[imoldfashioned]

A very interesting post Black Prince, thanks for writing.

I know what you mean about initially being boggled by the knowledge evidenced by many of the members here, but I've never found a group that is more open to share what they know in a friendly, non-condescending manner.

I would summarize the general consensus here as this; we are lucky to be able to enjoy the best of both worlds--vintage style and manners coexisting for us with the fruits of advances against prejudice and the technology of the modern world.

I've been consistently impressed with the respect the members here treat each other around "hot button" issues that have blown apart other communities. For instance, in the Powder Room we had a discussion about the attributes of "The New Vintage Lady" that began to vere into the topic of women who choose to stay at home with their children and women who chose to work outside the home. I braced myself for the fireworks but they never came. Ladies on both sides of the issue stated their thoughts, respectfully listened to the thoughts of others and we all moved on to other topics. I can't think of another time that's happened on a board. Kudos must be given to the bartenders here as well; they nip possible conflicts in the bud and keep this place a comfortable place to hang out.

I do wish we could discuss some aspects of politics, for instance in our recent discussion on Ken Burns' documentary The War there were issues I was aching to bring up--not to be inflamatory but because I was really interested in hearing what other members would think. Ultimately though, I think it was a wise decision to ban politics since it seems to be the ultimate 'slippery slope'.

Also, I know several members of the Lounge that are openly gay and I've never seen any problems arise because of that on the board.

I'm glad you've found us and that you've been enjoying your time here. Welcome!

 

[griffer]

Oh, things do 'blow up', but we have very diligent moderators that care very much about keeping this forum alive.

They often have to cut fire breaks, so to speak, just to head off the flames before they even begin....

And a respectful thank you and a bow to all the moderators....


:eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap

 

[Jack Scorpion]

It is quite unique, the board. I've drifted a little during college days looking for online forums of a more academic sort; xforums.net was one I spent a few months on; but there, anyandall intelligence ended up with a select few stroking their own egos. At The Fedora Lounge, I end up learning a lot. I think maybe it has something to do with a lot of the age differences.

As pertaining to gay folk and vintage styles ... My roommate and his boyfriend love borrowing my fedoras for shows/parties. If I could trace any influence, it'd probably be Scissor Sisters and Justin Timberlake, not old movies and classic Americana. Around West Hollywood, I do see a lot of the over-masculine types, bikers ... and of course, Cowboy-influenced, but I don't particularly find, say, the Humphrey Bogart gangster or the Robert Mitchum P.I., quite as iconic. To me, they're iconic as heck, but in a post-Woody Allen culture?

 

[deanglen]

Let's see...Welcome to the Lounge, Black Prince, and may you find your glass always full, the drinks on the house and friendly atmosphere every time you visit. For me, this place is beholden to the Golden Rule, and I've never heard of any excepted from that. I bartend in the hat forum, occasionally venture into the other forums and like to promote a genial establishment. Looking forward to seeing you here regularly. Absit iniuria verbis


dean

 

[Benny Holiday]

MK has created a 'cyber oasis' if you will, which he and the bartenders work hard to maintain, that is free of sniping, ill-will, trolls, etc. As the man himself has stated, he runs a 'classy joint', a club for ladies and gentlemen to discuss their common interests in hats, flight jackets, vintage shoes, make-up, stockings, etc etc. As a 'community' interested in vintage or classic style, we are often marginalised, or at least made to feel so, from mainstream society. Here we can relax and share our finds, our photos and get to form friendships with like-minded people.

Trouble makers are not tolerated here. I've found that the Fedora Lounge is a place where the focus is on the common interests we share, which far outweigh our differences, and that discussions here are respectful and intelligent (and often humourous, too!). Politics, when it became a source of continuous heated debate, was banned, but I've read and partcipated in many other threads in which members with widely-varying points of view have exchanged ideas and shared their opinions and ideals with civility and understanding.

I hope you feel welcome and at home here, Black Prince. The more of us to share and enjoy a love of vintage/retro clothing the better!

 

[dostacos]

welcome Black Prince, now for the hassle

Quote:"I'm aware that people here dwarf me in terms of specialist knowledge, experience and number of hats" end Quote

this should read SOME people end hassle

Yes there are many with a great deal of knowledge, then there are people like me I have 2 hats, [ok I have some that are nice but I don't wear them, campaign, aussie bush etc.]

the great thing about this place is internet flaming does not seem to show up very much at all, and when things do go sideways it does not last long. Mostly we have a group of very different people that have been brought together with a common interest and we have a good time. I think it may be in part because many here have had face to face meetings. I for one look forward to meeting lots of members at the Queen Mary in November and others this month at the back yard BBQ

Dan

 

[Spitfire]

Welcome Black Prince to the most civilized Lounge, where we talk more about topics that keeps us together - than topics that seperates us.
Heaven knows we are not all alike, but we have some common iterrests in the past, the golden age - some more some less.
Some wear vintage every day - others just likes aeroplanes and can't wait to wear the ol' Irvins and flying boots - as soon as it gets cold enough

But the bottomline is, that "the vintage" is more a state of mind. We all behave vintage and shows respect for our fellow man.
Welcome my friend.

 

[cookie]

Amen

I don't know about anyone else but I have a lotta fun on the Lounge and its a civilized place with a generosity of spirit that is exemplified in the cultured way folks behave towards each other. Glad you have found some new friends who are themselves so human...

 

[Ecuador Jim]

I work in the field of project management.

When I started, I worked for a heavily regimented organization where everyone was taught to think and act alike. Our projects were disasters. Our tolerance for anything different was low.

What I've learned over the years is that diversity is not a PC term; it is a strategic advantage.

I agree with Spitfire, we converge on the topics that bring us together. I also enjoy the fact that those with a ton more knowledge on various topics are ready to share it rather than beat you with it

Glad you like it here, and enjoy reading your insights!

 

[Twitch]

Well Black Prince it shows you're paying attention and actually thinking. Good for you!