Tropical Kit

[Alan Eardley]

Tomasso

We're all interested in today's repro market and should be interested in 'helping' vendors and manufacturers to improve their products and the way they are advertised and described. This has been going on for years, and examples of vendors 'faking history' are too numerous to mention here. I'd love to see a manufacturer make accurate 1950 pattern KD shorts - I'd lend them a pair of mine to copy...on condition that they described them accurately.

I have no problem with the shorts on the J Powell site, by the way, and the price is a personal thing, so perhaps I shouldn't really comment. My problem is with the description of the shorts. If the vendor said something to the effect that they are 'In the style of British Army shorts' or, 'Our interpretation of... British tropical shorts' I wouldn't have a problem at all. You could even add, '...as worn by Gurkhas' since when serving in desert campaigns, Gurkha regiments, like any others, wore KD shorts.

Its the cynical use of the name of a very special people and unique fighting force to imply that they are special to them to which I object. If a vendor bought ordinary soccer or basketball socks and sold them unauthorised as 'David Beckham' or 'Michael Jordan' socks he'd soon be hearing from their respective lawyers, I think. And they only play ball games.

Anyone who doesn't see why I'm sensitive about this should research the proud history of the Ghurka battalions in the British Army.

Anyway, thanks for posting the link. And, by the way, keep a look-out on The Adventurers Gear thread. Baron Kurtz is going to show us his shorts. And he call them "Gurkha shorts" just to wind me up, you'll see...

Alan

I do understand your point but you should understand that many on FL are interested in today's repro market. [huh]

 

[Rooster]

Baron Kurtz is going to show us his shorts.

lol

 

[stevechasmar]

Many Thanks!

Thank all of you for the replies! Please excuse me the lapse -- I had to rush off to Cambodia for work (updating a guidebook) and have just now gotten back to Bangkok and caught my breath.

I need to go through all these replies thoroughly, and no doubt I'll have more questions very soon. Thanks especially to BellyTank for the photos of that terrific tropical linen suit. While in Phnom Penh I ran into an old friend who suggested a tailor here in Bangkok -- a mere mile or so downriver from my Chinatown apartment -- who is said to be a real ace at making suits in little-remembered styles. His shop is called Ah Song Tailors and he's located very near the famous Oriental Hotel (normally such a location might start the alarm bells ringing, but I very much trust my friend's word on this).

Anyway, thanks again to you all, and I will be back shortly with some more on this topic.

All best,
Steven

 

[stevechasmar]

Originally Posted by Mojave Jack
For hats, Panamas are really the best option. Pith helmets really make the look, but I've yet to see anyone really pull it off. Otherwise a lightweight felt, but no matter how light the felt, it's still too much for out here.

A few years back while researching a story in Rangoon for the BBC, I found an old pith helmet -- an Indian-made "solar topee" -- being offered for sale by one of the sidewalk vendors that set up along Shwebontha Street in the evenings. The helmet was in pretty good condition for its age -- even the leather sweat band was intact -- and so I bought it for the equivalent of about eight dollars US. I took it back to my hotel room, cleaned it up a bit, and then practiced wearing it inside for a couple of days -- lest there be some embarrassing surprise (infested with tiny spiders, etc.) that would best be discovered away from the public eye. After gaining a measure of confidence, I donned the hat along with a khaki drill shirt that I often wear while working and some long trousers (no, I hadn't packed a pair of matching khaki shorts!) and made my way out into the brutal Burmese sunshine.

The reaction, as I remember it, was not at all what I expected. Several people asked me how much I had paid for the hat, and when I told them, they said that they had a similar one at home and would sell it to me for a bit less!

So I got neither cheers nor jeers -- I'm not sure if I carried it off or not -- but I do believe I have uncovered the Secret Burial Ground of the British colonial solar topee -- Burma!

One quick question though: felts are much too hot for here too. Besides panamas, would any other straws work with colonial-era kit?

 

[renor27]

Steve:

I have a pattern for the shorts got it from Folkwear Look @ the outback brush out fit " The classic bush jacket, trousers, and shorts from Hollywood's version of the tropical British colonies." the shorts are just what you are looking for, if you have tailor close by you are in like Flynn. I am having two pairs of shorts made for next summer plus two pairsof the pants.
My Father was in Indo China in the late 1940's and had a few suits made in what he called 6 oz wool were almost see though unluckly I am bigger then he was and they do not fit. I am also slowly getting together French catalogs from the 1920's will look to see if there are any suits for the tropics. I would think that the film The Lover might be place to start and if you can get photos then your tailor could make you what you want. If find any pictures from catalogs will get them to you.
David

 

[dhermann1]

Pith helmets

Steve Chasmar, first you must realize what reading phrases like "I had to rush off to Cambodia" does to most male loungers. I wouldn't quite call it a sexual response, but they get VERY aroused, at least in the imaginative corpuscles of the brain. You need to be somewhat judicious throwing phrases like around here.
Now about the pith helmet. I have new one, bought in the States, but made in Vietnam. I've worn it in public a couple of times, to events where I thought I could pull it off. I mainly had to artfully disguise feeling like an absolute cluck. Is this how you felt wearing a pith helmet in its native land? If so, then there's no hope for the rest of us at all. I wore mine to a WW II vintage plane fly-in at Floyd Bennett Field in Brooklyn. It was appropriately sweltering and bright. But there was still that cluckish feeling, even tho I got several nice compliments. I did what they say you're supposed to do, I soaked it an water for an hour or so before going out, to get the cork wet. I THINK it worked. My skull did stay cool. Did you try this?
Please keep us updated. Part of the romance of being in the tropics is having a totally sardonic, cynical attitude about it. So the more you talk this way the more we won't believe it.
Please send us more bulletins from the remote corners of the Empire.
Thanks!

 

[stevechasmar]

Dhermann1,

I'll watch what I say in the future! Really though, exoticism is in the eye of the beholder. I have lived in Asia and the Pacific Islands full time since I was just out of high school -- about 25 years now -- and am from San Diego originally. I was just telling a friend who hails from Vermont how envious I was of his being able to watch the autumn colors light up the forest. I have yet to see the seasonal changes or even real snow. On the other hand, I've spent so much time watching the sweat collect in my navel in places like Burma, Cambodia, Laos, Vietnam, Malaysia and the Philippines, that it sometimes seems as though my pre-Asia life were some late-night movie that I watched years back and am now only vaguely familiar with. It helps that I have chosen to be a freelance writer and can barely afford to travel home more than a couple times a decade!

As for the pith helmet, I think Burma might well be the only place in Southeast Asia where one can get away with wearing it. I say this because it has been so isolated for so long, and so few tourists go there, that every foreigner, no matter what they wear, will get the same bemused stares and nervous giggles. It was George Orwell I believe, who while posted as a colonial policemen in Burma, said something to the effect that white men in the Asian colonies lived in constant fear of not being taken seriously by the locals (I think it was his essay, Shooting an Elephant).

Ironically, I think overall the pith helmet was a success -- but only because I didn't run into any other Westerners during my little experimental outing. Had I done so, I am sure that I would have felt self conscious and worried about looking clownish. I did not soak the helmet, by the way, having never heard that bit of advice. It certainly sounds like sound advice though.

Renor27,

Thank you for that great idea re the film The Lover. I actually have a pirated copy of this film that I bought months ago at the so-called Thieves Market on the opposite side of Chinatown. I had a look at it again this morning, and that linen suit that Tony Leung wears is perfect! I had completely forgotten about that movie. It's a pretty steamy movie too, I should say. Now I am just trying to figure out how to capture a frame or two and print them out to show my tailor. I think I can have this done by Monday or so.

I would be interested in seeing any images from old catalogs if you do come up with some. I too will keep an eye out. Below is a link for a photo that I downloaded from eBay a while back and then just recently uploaded onto my Flickr account. It was from an old photo album that was being offered whole. The album belonged to an officer in the US army posted in the Philippines circa 1910. Note the tall, British-style pith helmet one of these guys is wearing. Funny, the US army uniforms at the time look like a cross between British and German styles!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/15022827@N04/1613257625/

Thanks again to you both!

All best,
Steven

 

[renor27]

Glad that the flick had what you were looking for

Steve,
as I find photos of tropical weight suits I will pass them along.
The internet is such a great tool .
Love to see a photo of the copy of the linen suit from the lover when you get it made.
what would a suit like that set you back?
David

 

[BellyTank]

...Thanks especially to BellyTank for the photos of that terrific tropical linen suit...

All best,
Steven

Steven, it's actually KD, Khaki Drill cotton.
Cheap and cheerful.
It looks the part though, especially in the flesh- it looks 70 yrs old.

B
T

 

[stevechasmar]

Haing a Linen Suit Made in Bangkok

OK, glad to see there are still a couple of you with me. Here's what's happened so far:

I was able to print out some stills of Tony Leung in The Lover that show him wearing a very stylish linen suit in what is supposed to be French Indochina between WWI and WWII. This film is impressive with its attention to detail. I asked a Vietnamese friend of mine about it, a former Vietcong who was imprisoned after "liberation" for speaking out against the government. He's now in his 60s and an archaeologist -- a real character -- and he said he had watched this movie and was awestruck by how they could make it so real. Such sentiments led me to believe that the person in charge of wardrobe would have been a stickler for detail as well, and so I feel good about using these photos from the film as a pattern from which to make a French colonial linen suit.

By the way, there was another movie that I saw recently that had quite a good suit in it -- albeit different in style from what I am after now -- and that is one of the ones worn by Ryan O'Neil in Paper Moon. There are some GREAT clothes in this film if you haven't watched it before.

Anyway, I bought the material for my linen suit in Bangkok's Chinatown where I happen to live. There is one long alley that is given over primarily to textiles and cloth in bolts. A friend recommended a shop that sells good quality linen at about $10 a meter ( I do believe a meter and a yard are about the same length -- at least that is how I have always thought of it). I bought four meters of a cream-colored linen cloth with a very subtle pattern through it. I don't know the proper term to describe it, but there is a very faint red line running one way and a very faint blue line running perpendicular to the red one, making barely perceptible squares across the cloth. It's quite an old fashioned looking pattern, and while I was at first determined to just get the classic, plain, ivory-colored material (similar to the color of BellyTank's Khaki Drill cotton suit). This pattern really caught my eye. I'm afraid I've not very well described it, so I will include a photo with my next post (if I can figure out how to attach one).

Besides the linen, I also bought three meters of rayon for the lining. Some of you may wonder why I didn't choose silk (I am in Thailand after all) but I had been warned against it by friends who said that silk is hot and would counteract the cooling properties of the linen. The rayon also set me back about $10 a meter.

Interestingly, the cloth seller told me when I bought the material for my suit that I needed to soak both the linen and rayon (especially the linen she said) and let them hang to dry thoroughly but out of the sun. This she said would cause it to shrink up a bit -- something that needed to be done before the suit was made. I did this yesterday and hung the cloth up to dry over night.

This morning I took it all, including my print outs, to a tailor very near my apartment in Bangkok's old business district. This area -- along a street that many foreigners still call New Road, despite the fact that the road was built in the 20s -- Bangkok's first road -- has quite a few tailors due to its proximity to the Oriental Hotel. The tailor is one of those old-school Chinese tailors. I had been warned by friends not to bother with any of the Indian tailors here -- the kind who post a tout outside their shop door and try to snag customers as they walk by ("Hello sir. A silk suit sir? Fine tailoring sir", etc.). The friend in Phnom Penh who recommended this one Chinese tailor claimed that the man was well versed in old styles. The name of the tailor by the way is Ah Song, and he's located on Charoen Krung (New Road) Soi 38 in Bangkok.

This morning we did the measurements, and the tailor, after having a look at the print outs, began making recommendations: breast pocket at a very slight inward slant, for example. He made a whole page of notes as we looked over the print outs of Tony Leung. The tailor thought he had enough material to make a vest -- something I hadn't thought of. Luckily I'm not too big in stature (having lived in Asia so long perhaps stunted my growth -- when I go back to California I am always stunned at how big everyone else is).

I asked at one point how much the suit would cost, but the tailor waved the question away. I didn't press the matter. This is not something I would recommend a newcomer to Bangkok do -- there are a million and one scams waiting out there for the uninitiated -- but this guy is on the level, I can tell. So I made a mental note not to ask about money again -- I will wait until the suit is done.

So -- the measurements took about twenty minutes. I am supposed to go back in for a fitting one a week from yesterday -- next Monday.

Hmmmm. Wish me luck!

 

[BellyTank]

Good luck, Steven!
I've made a note of the Tailor's details...

Looking forward to seeing the results.


B
T

 

[cookie]

Ghurka British Shorts

Sorry, I didn't mean it to 'sound' like that, but when manufacturers take a basic design of clothing that is available much more cheaply (and authentically) from other sources and 'gold plate' it like that with an over-romantic description at an over-inflated price I feel it deserves comment.

If someone doesn't want to save money and get a more authentic product, he or she can always ignore such comments.

Thanks, of course, for posting the link to the resource.

Alan

Alan just googling around it seems the usual problem with vintage aka thin waists depression waistlines. How do you get UL military shorts in 38" waist or who does repros?

 

[cookie]

Memory Lane

OK, glad to see there are still a couple of you with me. Here's what's happened so far:

I was able to print out some stills of Tony Leung in The Lover that show him wearing a very stylish linen suit in what is supposed to be French Indochina between WWI and WWII. This film is impressive with its attention to detail. I asked a Vietnamese friend of mine about it, a former Vietcong who was imprisoned after "liberation" for speaking out against the government. He's now in his 60s and an archaeologist -- a real character -- and he said he had watched this movie and was awestruck by how they could make it so real. Such sentiments led me to believe that the person in charge of wardrobe would have been a stickler for detail as well, and so I feel good about using these photos from the film as a pattern from which to make a French colonial linen suit.

By the way, there was another movie that I saw recently that had quite a good suit in it -- albeit different in style from what I am after now -- and that is one of the ones worn by Ryan O'Neil in Paper Moon. There are some GREAT clothes in this film if you haven't watched it before.

Anyway, I bought the material for my linen suit in Bangkok's Chinatown where I happen to live. There is one long alley that is given over primarily to textiles and cloth in bolts. A friend recommended a shop that sells good quality linen at about $10 a meter ( I do believe a meter and a yard are about the same length -- at least that is how I have always thought of it). I bought four meters of a cream-colored linen cloth with a very subtle pattern through it. I don't know the proper term to describe it, but there is a very faint red line running one way and a very faint blue line running perpendicular to the red one, making barely perceptible squares across the cloth. It's quite an old fashioned looking pattern, and while I was at first determined to just get the classic, plain, ivory-colored material (similar to the color of BellyTank's Khaki Drill cotton suit). This pattern really caught my eye. I'm afraid I've not very well described it, so I will include a photo with my next post (if I can figure out how to attach one).

Besides the linen, I also bought three meters of rayon for the lining. Some of you may wonder why I didn't choose silk (I am in Thailand after all) but I had been warned against it by friends who said that silk is hot and would counteract the cooling properties of the linen. The rayon also set me back about $10 a meter.

Interestingly, the cloth seller told me when I bought the material for my suit that I needed to soak both the linen and rayon (especially the linen she said) and let them hang to dry thoroughly but out of the sun. This she said would cause it to shrink up a bit -- something that needed to be done before the suit was made. I did this yesterday and hung the cloth up to dry over night.

This morning I took it all, including my print outs, to a tailor very near my apartment in Bangkok's old business district. This area -- along a street that many foreigners still call New Road, despite the fact that the road was built in the 20s -- Bangkok's first road -- has quite a few tailors due to its proximity to the Oriental Hotel. The tailor is one of those old-school Chinese tailors. I had been warned by friends not to bother with any of the Indian tailors here -- the kind who post a tout outside their shop door and try to snag customers as they walk by ("Hello sir. A silk suit sir? Fine tailoring sir", etc.). The friend in Phnom Penh who recommended this one Chinese tailor claimed that the man was well versed in old styles. The name of the tailor by the way is Ah Song, and he's located on Charoen Krung (New Road) Soi 38 in Bangkok.

This morning we did the measurements, and the tailor, after having a look at the print outs, began making recommendations: breast pocket at a very slight inward slant, for example. He made a whole page of notes as we looked over the print outs of Tony Leung. The tailor thought he had enough material to make a vest -- something I hadn't thought of. Luckily I'm not too big in stature (having lived in Asia so long perhaps stunted my growth -- when I go back to California I am always stunned at how big everyone else is).

I asked at one point how much the suit would cost, but the tailor waved the question away. I didn't press the matter. This is not something I would recommend a newcomer to Bangkok do -- there are a million and one scams waiting out there for the uninitiated -- but this guy is on the level, I can tell. So I made a mental note not to ask about money again -- I will wait until the suit is done.

So -- the measurements took about twenty minutes. I am supposed to go back in for a fitting one a week from yesterday -- next Monday.

Hmmmm. Wish me luck!

Mate that is a trip down memory lane - to 1992 to be precise. I was attending the wedding of an Aussie friend in Siena and thought the appropriate suit would be linen. So when I was in the airlines I used to go down to SamPheng (Chinatown) and look for material for suits. I remember just where you went and the duckboards. I bought some linen that an (Indian) Thai tailor made up for me in 48 hours.[huh] It looked the goods (I changed at the Siena railway station) and I arrived at the church with 5 minutes to spare. .:eusa_clap Those were the days....

I preceded to wear it for another 10 years before it went to Vinnies for a new owner. When I wore it to work in Parliament House a few times the young blokes referred to it as the Miami 'drug baron' suit!lol lol Whatever!

Those photos of the movie star in the suit could benefit from a quick trip to one of those photo shops where you dream will turn into thumbnail shots for the greater edification of the Fedora Lounge. Then when we see the finshed product.:eusa_doh:

My other BKK memory is of taking a big lump of Irish linen I bought cheaply from the Irish Shop in Perth on a trip and I discovered a tailor like you describe in that River City hotel complex (near the River/Oriental) that made a sensational suit for me which a friend later wore (when I got bigger) and it ended up with his nephew no less. I wonder if its the same guy?:eusa_doh:

Cannot wait to see the finished product as I have 5 metres of Irish ivory linen I have been guarding for a special suit.

Cheers

Cookie

 

[Alan Eardley]

Alan just googling around it seems the usual problem with vintage aka thin waists depression waistlines. How do you get UL military shorts in 38" waist or who does repros?

Cookie,

It depends which military shorts you want. The 1950 pattern (BKs first photo) rarely come above 32" and AFAIK aren't being reproduced at the moment. The main market for such items is reanactors and I don't think many people re-enact the First Suez Crisis...

The later (1970s-80s) shorts are more common and do come in larger sizes, but you're still talking about kit that was worn by young soldiers who trained in a hot climate and did lots of PT. Again, they aren't thought worth of reproduction.

The earlier shorts (1942 Pattern and later) are reproduced and come in huge sizes (34" and above). Soldier of Fortune in Wales has just revised its range of KD repro kit, and I haven't examined the most recent ones, although the previous ones they sold (made in India) weren't 'quite right'. Try:

www.sofmilitary.co.uk.

I would have thought that it was easier to get military shorts at your end of the world than cold windy Blighty!

Alan

Alan

 

[cookie]

Military Shorts

Cookie,

It depends which military shorts you want. The 1950 pattern (BKs first photo) rarely come above 32" and AFAIK aren't being reproduced at the moment. The main market for such items is reanactors and I don't think many people re-enact the First Suez Crisis...

The later (1970s-80s) shorts are more common and do come in larger sizes, but you're still talking about kit that was worn by young soldiers who trained in a hot climate and did lots of PT. Again, they aren't thought worth of reproduction.

The earlier shorts (1942 Pattern and later) are reproduced and come in huge sizes (34" and above). Soldier of Fortune in Wales has just revised its range of KD repro kit, and I haven't examined the most recent ones, although the previous ones they sold (made in India) weren't 'quite right'. Try:

www.sofmilitary.co.uk.

I would have thought that it was easier to get military shorts at your end of the world than cold windy Blighty!

Alan

Alan

Funnily enough Gowings (RIP) made up a lot of shorts to the military pattern but I never bought them at the time. I used to wear them back in the 80s when you could pick them up easy and I was like a 34" waist.

The pick of the SOF shorts are those Luftwaffe shorts - sehr schoen Mein Freund! The doubel buckle fronts are also nice.

 

[Alan Eardley]

Funnily enough Gowings (RIP) made up a lot of shorts to the military pattern but I never bought them at the time. I used to wear them back in the 80s when you could pick them up easy and I was like a 34" waist.

The pick of the SOF shorts are those Luftwaffe shorts - sehr schoen Mein Freund! The doubel buckle fronts are also nice.

Yes, SoF have reasonable prices, too, for stuff that is quite accurate. I don't think 30 GBP for a pair of shorts is too bad.

Alan

 

[cookie]

Alan et al Anyone like these ?

http://onlinemilitaria.net/shopexd.asp?id=1265&bc=no

Are these any good? http://onlinemilitaria.net/shopexd.asp?id=1243&bc=no

 

[BellyTank]

Hi Cookie.

WPG, in the US and
SoF, in the UK,
share the same Khaki goods.


I bought WPG khaki from Sof.

You can see people all over the Lounge wearing WPG khaki.
Here, for instance:

http://thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=24627

and in the Adventure Gear thread/s.

The gear is pretty good- I have an Aertex shirt and 1st model khaki trou from them.

You can choose the best prices and postage to suit your location.


B
T

 

[Alan Eardley]

Same comments as BT's. My only problem is sizing - they have only just begun to offer the smaller (realistic) sizing.

Alan

 

[cookie]

Steve - how is your clothing project going?

Dhermann1,

I'll watch what I say in the future! Really though, exoticism is in the eye of the beholder. I have lived in Asia and the Pacific Islands full time since I was just out of high school -- about 25 years now -- and am from San Diego originally. I was just telling a friend who hails from Vermont how envious I was of his being able to watch the autumn colors light up the forest. I have yet to see the seasonal changes or even real snow. On the other hand, I've spent so much time watching the sweat collect in my navel in places like Burma, Cambodia, Laos, Vietnam, Malaysia and the Philippines, that it sometimes seems as though my pre-Asia life were some late-night movie that I watched years back and am now only vaguely familiar with. It helps that I have chosen to be a freelance writer and can barely afford to travel home more than a couple times a decade!

As for the pith helmet, I think Burma might well be the only place in Southeast Asia where one can get away with wearing it. I say this because it has been so isolated for so long, and so few tourists go there, that every foreigner, no matter what they wear, will get the same bemused stares and nervous giggles. It was George Orwell I believe, who while posted as a colonial policemen in Burma, said something to the effect that white men in the Asian colonies lived in constant fear of not being taken seriously by the locals (I think it was his essay, Shooting an Elephant).

Ironically, I think overall the pith helmet was a success -- but only because I didn't run into any other Westerners during my little experimental outing. Had I done so, I am sure that I would have felt self conscious and worried about looking clownish. I did not soak the helmet, by the way, having never heard that bit of advice. It certainly sounds like sound advice though.

Renor27,

Thank you for that great idea re the film The Lover. I actually have a pirated copy of this film that I bought months ago at the so-called Thieves Market on the opposite side of Chinatown. I had a look at it again this morning, and that linen suit that Tony Leung wears is perfect! I had completely forgotten about that movie. It's a pretty steamy movie too, I should say. Now I am just trying to figure out how to capture a frame or two and print them out to show my tailor. I think I can have this done by Monday or so.

I would be interested in seeing any images from old catalogs if you do come up with some. I too will keep an eye out. Below is a link for a photo that I downloaded from eBay a while back and then just recently uploaded onto my Flickr account. It was from an old photo album that was being offered whole. The album belonged to an officer in the US army posted in the Philippines circa 1910. Note the tall, British-style pith helmet one of these guys is wearing. Funny, the US army uniforms at the time look like a cross between British and German styles!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/15022827@N04/1613257625/

Thanks again to you both!

All best,
Steven

Any update or progress?