Trendy Guys in Trendy Fedoras

[BigSleep]

More, more, more!

I went by the store "Lids" the other day in the mall.
(This is a store that sells all kinds of ball caps)

They have an entire section full of different styles. Kangols, Fedoras, etc. I've noticed this section growing over the last couple years.

Though the quality of most of those fedora style hats is not great, I did think it was cool that styles of hats other than ball caps are being worn more every day.

 

[Mr. Rover]

Yeah, my only objection is how cheap the hats usually are and they look terrible to my eye.

Truthfully, if more people wore hats I would be able to avoid sometimes feeling awskward in a suit and hat. In SF I never minded, but Seattle is so casual, I sometimes feel a bit over the top in suit overcoat and hat. People here don't really get it.

I know I shouldn't let other peoples lack of style affect me but it does.

A big part of it is I am a single guy and I need to be able to be attractive to the opposte sex when I go out.

I like being over-dressed. It's the actor in me.

 

[RedPop4]

Well stated, FeltFan, well stated. I think I'm right there with you.

Reet, it's not so much being overdressed as the sneering questions people put to you in a suit. I sometimes wear a tie to work if the mood strikes me, but usually when I wear a time it's because I'm either playing for, or, attending a funeral.

Casual-only people, like all who have let themselves slide to the lowest expectations, are usually aggressively hostile to those who simply wish to rise above it a bit. I've been making a conscious effort, lately, to at least wear long-sleeved dress shirts despite the fact that I have some new polo-type shirts in some lovely colors. I feel that the fedora looks better with the better shirt.

Now my wool, Dorfman Pacific Indy is ok with the polos, but not any of my other fedoras, IMO. I've worn them and will do so, but I think they look better witht he polo and jeans, or even the guayabera and jeans, but not with the polo and dress/khakis.

That's just me, though, call me crazy.

 

[Tomasso]

Casual-only people, like all who have let themselves slide to the lowest expectations, are usually aggressively hostile to those who simply wish to rise above it a bit.

I concur. They don't want the bar set too high.

 

[The Wingnut]

Makes it hard to hang your gut over the edge.

 

[jamespowers]

Makes it hard to hang your gut over the edge.

lol lol lol lol lol lol

 

[BigSho]

Feltfan I am not gonna argue your points on quality because it simply is not what it used to be but it is a completley seperate issue from that of fashion and trend. If you want a quality hat now a days you simply have to pay for it, and it is not going to come from your stetson and your dobbs. The dollar can't and will never again go as far as it did in the golden age of that hat. Ask any single person on here who is in the hat buisness in any way shape or form how hard it is to be in this buisness. I truly wish that stetson made a better hat so I wouldn't have to send half my fall order back. I wish a company like Biltmore can survive in better standing, because I feel for the money they make a great quality of hat. All these hats that all you vintage e-bayers out there pay nothing for would cost you a couple hundred dollars new as it is. Quality has been driven down by capatalism for decades in every manufacturing buisness. Just like a 100 dollar hat from stetson isnt that great neither is a 100 dollar suit or even a 100 dollar pair of shoes for that matter.

Jeremy
Hats Plus Ltd.

 

[feltfan]

Feltfan I am not gonna argue your points on quality because it simply is not what it used to be but it is a completley seperate issue from that of fashion and trend. If you want a quality hat now a days you simply have to pay for it, and it is not going to come from your stetson and your dobbs. The dollar can't and will never again go as far as it did in the golden age of that hat.

Jeremy, I have no doubt it's a tough business and
I don't begrudge you your buck on the caps and Kangols.
I don't question that the dollar won't go as far as it used to.
But it's not just about paying for the hat, it's about finding
a decent one at all, for most folks. There is no question that
people will splurge on clothes, if it's the right clothes. How much
do they pay for Nike shoes?

If I want a nice jacket or slacks, I can easily find them, in
departments stores, fron Zegna, Armani (some of it), Boss, or
a variety of other companies. I can also go to smaller fine
businesses like Davide Cenci or Paul Stuart in NYC or have
my Hawaiian shirts custom made in SF by Martha Egan or Al's Attire.
These are all pretty easy to find, particularly the department stores.
Anyone can find Nordstroms or Bloomies or Macy's and get a Zegna jacket.
Not vintage top quality in some ways, but not bad.

But these places do not carry hats. Okay, so the average Joe goes
to a local or online hat store, as they might for that special shirt
or tie. There is very little chance that Joe is going to find anything
of quality. It's easy to say that if you want quality you have to pay,
but what will you get? The average Joe is not going to find Art,
mthatter, Fedora, and other specialists.

The average Joe is going to spend $100 on crap that is going to shrink
in the first rain. He's gonna say, 'why do people throw their money
away on this stuff?' and never buy a felt hat again.
Until a quality product is available easily to the average Joe, good
hats will never catch on again, mass market. We will continue to see
what Mr. Maltby describes, and hats will be cheap costumes.

I don't know the economics of the situation, but it's my understanding
that good felt like the Winchester used by a lot of hatters, just isn't
that terribly expensive. It seems to me possible to make a quality
production hat for under $200. If brand cachet can be built (e.g.,
Carhartt, Levis, Sean John, Nike or whatever), a market can be made.
Maybe the store owners on this list can get together with store owners
they know and petition Stetson or Biltmore to make a decent hat to
their specs? Maybe someone should try making a lean, mean hat
company that makes standard (not custom) decent hats. Maybe two
colors to start, in just a couple of styles. Then when someone
goes in to their local store, they might learn why that hat is a good
investment, like a decent sportcoat, and get something of quality.

I apologize if it sounds like I am trying to tell you your business.
I'm not. I'm just trying to give a customer perspective.

 

[Mr Maltby]

On the subject of quality, its like someone who has never tasted meat, and then you shun them for getting a mcdonalds burger, and being satisfied with it. How can they have an opinion, or care to have an opinion if theyve never had filet mignon? At least theyre having it and enjoying it.

Off that horrible comparison though-- I think anyone wearing one(a fedora, not a filet) is good, high quality or low. Since it is an option rather than a necessity, the sporting of it is welcome. I just encourage someone saying 'hey, that is a good look. id like to emulate/embrace it.' That's all.

 

[Mr Maltby]

Feltfan -

After reading your last point, it resonated with me. Perhaps we should be upset with the hatters(not the vendors, I wouldnt shoot the messenger) for giving people such low grade stuff. Thoughts?

 

[BigSho]

No apologies are needed felt fan I agree with you on the quality issure %110. I guess my point is that there is nothing short of men wearing hats again regularly that will change that sad fact. It might not be to terribly expensive to make a good hat in terms of materials but there is just so much else to take into consideration when you think about it. Every single aspect of making a nice hat is skilled specialized labor that is almost non-existent in modern day. Not only that but you have to get your hands on the antique equipment that is needed to make it which is not cheap. Even then there is the time it takes to make the hat. How much is that hat makers time worth? Trust me I would love it id I could sell something of the vintage quality in a modern hat for under 300 dollars but it just isnt feasible. Maybe we all need to get up in arms and yell at stetson. Show them what the lounge is made of!! But until there is a change in the market I am just going to do my best to put the right hat on the right person in the best quality I can get at the best price I can give.

Jeremy
Hats Plus Ltd.

 

[feltfan]

I guess my point is that there is nothing short of men wearing hats again regularly that will change that sad fact.

Chicken or egg? I say let's make some eggs.

It might not be to terribly expensive to make a good hat in terms of materials but there is just so much else to take into consideration when you think about it. Every single aspect of making a nice hat is skilled specialized labor that is almost non-existent in modern day. Not only that but you have to get your hands on the antique equipment that is needed to make it which is not cheap. Even then there is the time it takes to make the hat.

Gee, if only there were companies with hat making equipment...

If Stetson or Bailey or Biltmore put decent felt into the line,
refrained from using extra stiffener, hired someone like Art
or Graham to supervise, and brought in some promising young talent,
I believe it could be done. As I have pointed out before, the
bicycle industry leveraged the custom builders to create just
such a market in the 90s.

I am not talking about knocking out Art Fawcett originals on
a factory line. I am talking about making a hat a lot like today's
Stetson, but using good felt and good leather sweat bands and
nice, non-vintage ribbons. The sewing can be done today, cheaply,
including the ribbons, once there were examples.
The blocking and pouncing can be taught. It does not have to
be perfect. The blocks can be made cheaply, based on vintage
high crown blocks. Buy bulk bodies of one medium but attractive
grey (say, Granite) and one rich brown (say, tobacco) and churn
out two styles. Really, it would not be all that hard, either for
a company already making hats from bad material or for a new
company with the right consultants. Either would need modern
marketing and product placement.

If the big guys aren't interested, maybe someone should buy
some equipment (maybe JW's shop) and start cranking out a modest
quality line of hats along the above lines? Get them into department
stores. Get them on the head of a star. Get people familiar with
a quality hat so they know that the other stuff is crap.

Perhaps we should be upset with the hatters(not the vendors, I wouldnt shoot the messenger) for giving people such low grade stuff.

Sort of. The big companies that bought the names, but not
the history of Stetson or Borsalino or whatever are clearly trying
to make a quick buck and do not appreciate the trade. But the
economics are different today, and quality has made a long slow
slide since the hat's popularity waned.

But if we are going to assign blame, I'm glad to get in on the game.
I think there is room for a quality product, and this board is proof,
as are some of the other points I have made. The big companies
shoot themselves in the foot by producing toy hats.

In addition, however, the store owners must decide if they want
to play a part in selling a quality product. It's fine if they want to
sell Kangols online. But if they want to expand and improve their
market, why not band together and make the big companies change.
Steven (besdor) is over in Europe banging on the Borsalino folks
to appreciate their heritage. Great. But have other stores sent
letters backing him up? Jeremy (BigSho) and others have praised
the new management at Biltmore, but have they talked about helping
to form new product lines, or are they content to receive "niche"
African American youth market products? Do the stores keep a
couple of Vintage Silhouette hats in stock to show what a hat
can really be, and act as a middle man?

Anyway, I have posted enough on this.

 

[BigSho]

First thing is first I have never praised Biltmores managment (nor would I but don't tell them) I praise Biltmore and the people in the pits there that have to deal with the new managment. I am still the son and have never talked to any of the big guys at these companies about this but believe me my father has. He has spent numerous hours on the phone with EVERY major player at EVERY single major hat company trying to get them to do the things we are discussing here. He has been to guelph to see Biltmore and tried to help them and give them advice. The only one that I feel anyone can make a difference with is Biltmore but I don't know anyone with the cash or the willingness to sink it into a hat company. If I had an extra million or two in the bank I would be on the first flight to canada, and I would make those quality hats. And Feltfan if that ever happens you will get the first one off the line on me .

Jeremy
Hats Plus Ltd.

 

[jamespowers]

The average Joe is going to spend $100 on crap that is going to shrink in the first rain. He's gonna say, 'why do people throw their money
away on this stuff?' and never buy a felt hat again.
Until a quality product is available easily to the average Joe, good
hats will never catch on again, mass market. We will continue to see
what Mr. Maltby describes, and hats will be cheap costumes.

This is exactly my problem with toy hats and the like. If they can't see it as something they can actually use then they are going to be disenchanted with hats forever. You don't do the industry any good producing something that is not up to standard.

Regards,

J

 

[feltfan]

First thing is first I have never praised Biltmores managment (nor would I but don't tell them) I praise Biltmore and the people in the pits there that have to deal with the new managment.

Whoops, sorry for the confusion.

I am still the son and have never talked to any of the big guys at these companies about this but believe me my father has. He has spent numerous hours on the phone with EVERY major player at EVERY single major hat company trying to get them to do the things we are discussing here. He has been to guelph to see Biltmore and tried to help them and give them advice. The only one that I feel anyone can make a difference with is Biltmore but I don't know anyone with the cash or the willingness to sink it into a hat company. If I had an extra million or two in the bank I would be on the first flight to canada, and I would make those quality hats. And Feltfan if that ever happens you will get the first one off the line on me .

It's great to hear what your dad is doing. And what Steven is doing.

But do hat stores have a professional organization?
Is there any way you can speak with one voice?
Part of what I was getting at is that a company that
doesn't care can ignore one or two guys, but if a dozen
speak up at once... or refuse shipments all at once...

And thanks Jeremy. I'd be proud to pay for such a hat!

 

[Mr. Lucky]

The above photos are from between 1938 and 1941. THESE are a regular guys. Off the rack shlubs who wouldn't know an armhole from a...well, you get the picture. THIS is me. This is a lot of guys that I know that still wear hats - whether it be a Stetson XXXX or a ten dollar wooly, they wear the hat just because that's what they do. Now, yes, you get the K-Fed psuedo fedora over the wife beater, but then you get the rest of us. You get guys who look JUST like this (yeah, it's Stallone, but you get the idea)-

And guys like this -

And this -

It's not trend. But, also, by the standards set by some around here, it's not style either. Well, you don't need to have a tailor on retainer to have style and your hat doesn't have to be the best to wear it well. It's not the clothes that make the man...

 

[reetpleat]

Well stated, FeltFan, well stated. I think I'm right there with you.

Reet, it's not so much being overdressed as the sneering questions people put to you in a suit.

While I don't blame people for not getting it, in San Fancisco if I dresed sharp I would get compliments on either looking good, or if they could tell, on being so vintage. But here in Sattle, they are so clueless as to style, I would just get the "why is that guy wearing a suit." attitude. This is because I tend to frequent hipster dive type bars. In SF there was a large class of young people who were urbane and stylish, but kind of original too. They tended to hang out in old bars in Northbeach and such, not to mention the vintage bars like The Deluxe and Bruno's. Noting like that in Seattle. A lot of them wore vintage, but not as a vintage way, and wore new stuff as wel with a vintage style to it. They were our best customers at the vintage shop, especially beacus the serious vintage people are not used to spending new store prices. They want a bargain, while a new clothse buyer will consider the lower price of vintage a bargain.

I did hate being out alone or with a few other dressers and getting the "Hey, the mafia." type coments.

 

[Aaron Hats]

I'm jumping into this conversation in the middle of it but here are just a few thoughts about what I've read so far.

If brand cachet can be built (e.g.,
Carhartt, Levis, Sean John, Nike or whatever), a market can be made.

This is part of the problem. Building name brand recognition takes years and millions of dollars. The cost of making the hats isn't that expensive, it's the branding and marketing that costs so much. A booth at MAGIC costs at least $10,000 not to mention travel expenses.

Off that horrible comparison though-- I think anyone wearing one(a fedora, not a filet) is good, high quality or low. Since it is an option rather than a necessity, the sporting of it is welcome. I just encourage someone saying 'hey, that is a good look. id like to emulate/embrace it.' That's all.

Exactly. At this point a hat is an option so when somebody does where one be sure to compliment them and maybe engage them in some light conversation pointing them to the FL.

If the big guys aren't interested, maybe someone should buy
some equipment (maybe JW's shop) and start cranking out a modest
quality line of hats along the above lines?

I think he's asking close to $1M for that business. There are probably only a couple people in the hat business who can afford that. Unfortunately I'm not one of them.

Get them into department
stores. Get them on the head of a star.

Easier said than done.

If I had an extra million or two in the bank I would be on the first flight to canada, and I would make those quality hats.

If I had an extra million I wouldn't bother with Biltmore. I'd start my own brand. Anybody have an extra million they care to lend me?

But do hat stores have a professional organization?
Is there any way you can speak with one voice?

Sadly, no. I talk with a couple other hat store owners on occasion but there is no central voice. I'm hoping to go to the annual headwear dinner in March but it will be my first time so I'm not sure what to expect.


Overall, I think this is a great conversation to have. Feltfan and BigSho have made some great points and if we were all a little closer together I think a sit down in a big conference room could actually produce some good ideas and a little action in the right direction.

Aaron

 

[reetpleat]

The above photos are from between 1938 and 1941. THESE are a regular guys. Off the rack shlubs who wouldn't know an armhole from a...well, you get the picture.

Yes, hats were just a given, and all of what would be incredible quality today, even the cheap ones back then.

My dad tells me his father would buy a new hat every year He was a farmer, and I dn't think he worked in it, but always wore one in town. The new hat was for sunday, and last years hat became the every day hat.

As for me, as much as I love hats, I am pretty physiclly sensitive, and would have trouble wearing a hat all the time. Just not comfortable.

 

[Mr. Lucky]

Yes, hats were just a given, and all of what would be incredible quality today, even the cheap ones back then.

My dad tells me his father would buy a new hat every year He was a farmer, and I dn't think he worked in it, but always wore one in town. The new hat was for sunday, and last years hat became the every day hat.

As for me, as much as I love hats, I am pretty physiclly sensitive, and would have trouble wearing a hat all the time. Just not comfortable.

And now my point - take those two same guys and add sixty years and what would they be wearing? The farmer, more than likely would be wearing a ball cap and the fellow on the subway, something probably like what Stallone sports. Now, is that a bad thing?