Trench Coat - the 'Ultimate' Thread!

[Alan Eardley]

Feraud,

English humour based on regional rivalry perhaps needs explanation, and doesn't 'travel well'. I was parodying the reaction of people to $1500 'label' garments currently being made in places like China. At the time that Thos. Burberry set up their factory there, Yorkshire was China in terms of the difference between the income of the workers making a product and the spending power of the customers buying it.

Rotherham is in South Yorkshire - an area once known affectionately as 'The People's Republic of South Yorkshire' for its fierce sense of independence and its strong socialist politics. When Margaret Thatcher announced that she had defeated 'the enemy without' (the Argentinians) and would now defeat the 'enemy within', she was referring mainly to the miners of the South Yorkshire coalfield (see Miner's Strike 1984) and other highly unionised workers. Now the steel, coal and clothing industries are derelict - see 'Brassed Off' and 'The Full Monty' (film version) for fictional parallels in the area. Now, instead of places like Rotherham, Doncaster and Sheffield, steel comes to the UK from Italy, coal from Poland and clothing from all over Asia.

Personally, I think that Burberry is to be praised for persisting in maintaining manufacturing bases in the UK (even if it has closed its Treorchy plant) though I suspect that only the 'ridiculously' high mark-up allows this. As an amateur researcher into industrial archeology, I am always fascinated by the relationship between the quality of the product and the characteristics and conditions in which it is made. I am from Stoke-on-Trent ('The Potteries') which was once described as 'an antiroom of Hell' (see photo') due to to its squalor, deprivation and industrial pollution - present-day Rotherham, by contrast, is quite pleasant.

And yet from such unpromising surroundings, from the hands of people who lived their lives only a little above poverty, almost inevitably facing an early death through industrial disease (my father was the first recorded male in our family to exceed 50 years of age) came works of ceramic art and beauty that rival the masterpieces of Meissen and Dresden. That is the magic of industry. Emperors have dined off the handywork of paupers, illiterates have exhibited skills that amaze and delight the connoisseur.

I hope that Burberry carries on making garments at Blyth and Rotherham. In my lifetime I have observed and been involved in the demise of whole industries. An outpost of long-standing local skill that continues to hold out against the blind trend towards cost-driven overseas outsourcing gets my support. Good on you, Burberry and Rotherham.

Alan

 

[Sin Khan]

Burberry Should not be Praised for Highway Robbery

I would agree to give a pat on the back to local industry in many cases, but not in this one. Gabardine cloth is about 14-30 dollars a yard. Brass hardware for a trench coat should be no more than 30-50 dollars. The labor for making a trench coat by the factory efficient method means that Burberry should be able to produce this coat for less than double the cost of materials alone. This means that it should cost Burberry at most $250 to produce a trench coat. Yet, their trench coats cost $1500 retail. Even if it costs them $500 dollars to make a coat, that is a 300 percent markup! In contrast, I believe that Bill Gates and his company, Microsoft, were sent to court for having a 30 percent markup on their products.

Burberry’s asking price for their trench coats is nothing short of highway robbery. How companies like Microsoft can get investigated by the government for the markup on their products and yet companies like Burberry can charge 1500 dollars for a cotton trench coat and get away with it speaks of nothing short of absolute corruption on the part of local politicians in my view.

Taxes in England are what destroyed local businesses. There is no industry in England because no industry can operate business in England and remain competitive in the market. Burberry should not be praised for its highway robbery. Instead, Britain’s and the populous of the European Union need to hold their public representatives accountable for passing laws that destroyed their own industries businesses. Labor unions protecting unproductive workers, excessive taxes placed upon manufactured goods, unchecked exorbitant medical care costs and insurance benefits for workers, these are the things that have destroyed your businesses and are now quickly destroying ours as well.

It’s a shame that a sole proprietor in America with a sewing machine and a credit card can produce clothing goods of better quality and for a better price than entire factories that are set up in the European Union.

 

[Feraud]

Thanks for the explanation Alan E-.


One benefit of vintage shopping (versus retail) is we avoid the usual rounds of highway robbery. Yours truly got his Burberrry at a severely below retail cost. All it takes is perseverance and a dash of luck.

 

[AlanC]

SK, as someone who has done business with STP on several (some might say 'too many') occasions, their service and return policy are top notch. You can order from them worry free as they'll take back anything, anytime for any reason. Also keep an eye out for discount codes that float around periodically for various percentages off.

 

[Sin Khan]

Thanks fellas for the advice, but I think i'm going to just keep it.

Thanks Alan, it was one of your posts that I found here before that convinced me to give them a try in the first place. You were right then about their service and I appreciate that. I have decided to keep the coat thought; it just has all the features that I want in a basic trench coat (removable quality liner, full length inner liner, removable collar liner, flap closure of the collar, and a belt back stay for the waist belt.)

I wore the coat today and it fit well over my other cloths. It is a size too large, but it was very comfortable when wearing a lot of other cloths underneath the coat. I have yet to put on a full suit and the liner of the coat but I think that I will feel very comfortable and not constricted as I do with some overcoats. I will find out tomorrow as I give it a try. I will also try to take some pictures and post them. I don’t have a web site or photo bucket account but I will try to set one up.

Feraud, I went to a thrift store this past weekend and I thought I was going to get mugged for sure. It’s a good thing I don’t go anywhere unless I’m packing heat. This one fella made sure to leave just before I did and I knew he was sizing me up for the take, but the criminals always seem to know when I’m packing my .45 auto on me. I am certainly a good shot with it too and I always keep one in the chamber.

I don’t think that I will be “casually” going to another thrift store in the near future like that last trip. I will go again to a different thrift store, but I will most certainly prepare myself better for the trip.

Are most thrift stores run down holes in the walls with predators constantly hanging around outside? Perhaps it’s just my crappy, ghetto, depraved town. And no, this thrift store didn't have one single mens coat in the entire place, which was much bigger than it looked on the outside BTW.

 

[Alan Eardley]

I would agree to give a pat on the back to local industry in many cases, but not in this one. Gabardine cloth is about 14-30 dollars a yard. Brass hardware for a trench coat should be no more than 30-50 dollars. The labor for making a trench coat by the factory efficient method means that Burberry should be able to produce this coat for less than double the cost of materials alone. This means that it should cost Burberry at most $250 to produce a trench coat. Yet, their trench coats cost $1500 retail. Even if it costs them $500 dollars to make a coat, that is a 300 percent markup! In contrast, I believe that Bill Gates and his company, Microsoft, were sent to court for having a 30 percent markup on their products.

Burberry’s asking price for their trench coats is nothing short of highway robbery. How companies like Microsoft can get investigated by the government for the markup on their products and yet companies like Burberry can charge 1500 dollars for a cotton trench coat and get away with it speaks of nothing short of absolute corruption on the part of local politicians in my view.

Taxes in England are what destroyed local businesses. There is no industry in England because no industry can operate business in England and remain competitive in the market. Burberry should not be praised for its highway robbery. Instead, Britain’s and the populous of the European Union need to hold their public representatives accountable for passing laws that destroyed their own industries businesses. Labor unions protecting unproductive workers, excessive taxes placed upon manufactured goods, unchecked exorbitant medical care costs and insurance benefits for workers, these are the things that have destroyed your businesses and are now quickly destroying ours as well.

It’s a shame that a sole proprietor in America with a sewing machine and a credit card can produce clothing goods of better quality and for a better price than entire factories that are set up in the European Union.

You seem to think I'm supporting Burberry's selling price. I'm not - I simply wouldn't buy their products (at least not until they come down to around 30 - 40 GBP in charity shops).

Speaking as ex work-study in the clothing industry I think you are not far off with your cost estimates. The labour and distribution costs in the UK would about double the material costs. The high-end store about doubles what it pays the manufacturer. That still leave a lot for Burberry. Burberry uses the Vertex production control system by Ceres Systems, by the way.

Go back to my original post. I still don't see the difference between Burberry getting a huge mark-up on a trench coat made in Rotherham (which seems to be OK with most people) and Ralph Lauren getting a similar mark-up on a leather jacket made in China (which doesn't). In many cases the saving in costs of outsourcing to cheaper manufacturing bases is not being passed on to the buyer - it stays with the corporation or the design house. as profit.

I think it is equally obvious from my post that I hold UK politicians responsible for the demise of our manufacturing base. The anti-manufacture policies of success governments cost me three jobs - you think I wouldn't notice?

I'm not praising Burberry for its excessive margin. I'm giving a 'positive' to Burberry for sticking with manufacture in the UK. Sadly, the main reason it has chosen to do this the high margin it can make on its 'exclusive' lines. The other is fear of losing its royal warrant. If Burberry was involved in price competition or any other form of realistic VFM, it would have done with its coats like it did with its polo shirts - off to China. I'm sure you'll see that the people who buy a Burberry coat want to pay a lot, because it shows they can.

You may also see that there are many sole proprietor and small businesses in the UK and elsewhere in the EU that produce clothing that is both better quality, cheaper and more exclusive than any of the big label manufacturers, here or in the US or China. That's what the people who really know what they are doing buy. If I don't want to contibute to a company's excessive products, I don't buy its goods, and neither do many people. Some companies faced with that situation go out of business, others just become 'exclusive'.

Alan

 

[Edward]

Burberry’s asking price for their trench coats is nothing short of highway robbery. How companies like Microsoft can get investigated by the government for the markup on their products and yet companies like Burberry can charge 1500 dollars for a cotton trench coat and get away with it speaks of nothing short of absolute corruption on the part of local politicians in my view.

Competition law ( or "anti-trust" as it is known in the US) is not concerned with whether a company makes a high profit margin per se, but whether they are in abuse of a dominant position. Microsoft were investigated over several instancers of apparent abuse of their approx 90% market share in the operating systems market to squash competition for certain of their applications from other companies. Burberry have no such dominant market position when it comes to the manufacture of overcoats, thus they are perfectly entitled to charge as much as the market will bear. Noone is being obliged or railroaded into purchasing their coats in preference to those produced elsewhere. I question why anyone would pay the sort of money that could buy a bespoke suit for an off the peg trenchcoat, however, many see it differently. It's the power of branding. That's capitalism.

Taxes in England are what destroyed local businesses. There is no industry in England because no industry can operate business in England and remain competitive in the market. Burberry should not be praised for its highway robbery. Instead, Britain’s and the populous of the European Union need to hold their public representatives accountable for passing laws that destroyed their own industries businesses. Labor unions protecting unproductive workers, excessive taxes placed upon manufactured goods, unchecked exorbitant medical care costs and insurance benefits for workers, these are the things that have destroyed your businesses and are now quickly destroying ours as well.

I'll elect not to address this point as any response would be equally as political a comment as the above, and therefore in contravention of house rules.

 

[PADDY]

Burberry...where made?

Well we have Blyth and Rotherham in the UK, but having just come back from their factory shop (sell off seconds there), I see that they are also being made in Malaysia (according to the labels). So, not all the trench coats are made in Britain these days.[huh] Sad, but it doesn't surprise me.

 

[Alan Eardley]

Well we have Blyth and Rotherham in the UK, but having just come back from their factory shop (sell off seconds there), I see that they are also being made in Malaysia (according to the labels). So, not all the trench coats are made in Britain these days.[huh] Sad, but it doesn't surprise me.

Paddy,

Yes, I heard this (from someone from Malaysia!). I suppose it's not as far as China...

Anyway, in my opinion Burberry men's trench coats haven't had the requisite design or quality for the last 50 years, wherever they are (or will be) made. When you come across one from the 1940s (one came up on eBay recently) you can see the difference in a photograph. For what it's worth, I think the Burberry legend is stretched. Gamages always made a better coat.

Alan

 

[carter]

This is a very interesting thread. Good reading for someone who doesn't live in the UK but is very interested and buys from UK Ebay periodically.

Spitfire, I think you nailed it with the J. Peterman Trenchcoat. I may buy one. I added their wbsite to my favorites list. Thanks for the link.

 

[Feraud]

The problem with the Peterman site are those illustrations! You have to order the jacket to see what it really looks like. That is a major drawback to me.

It is interesting to read how local/global politics and considerations eventually effect our economic purchases. The popularity of Burberry is due to their marketing practices. The jacket is a great product but their branding has done wonders for the name these past years.

 

[Edward]

As I've probably said in another thread already, I'm very pleased with my second hand Burb. Yuo really can feel the quality of the coat as compared to some of the high street options, but equally I don't think it'd have been worth more than about half of the RRP Burberry slap on them... The only real pain about trying to track down a good used trench, especially if you want something like a Burberry, is that it's so damn hard to find one in grey, black, navy.... anything other than tan / khaki!! Not that I don't like those, but one does prefer to have a range of coats for all occasions and suit colours...

 

[Damon Falzone]

Burberry trench

I wanted a Burberry trench coat but could never justify, nor could afford their over-blown price.
I patiently looked on ebay and finally scored a black, single-breasted, zip-in wool liner, made in England, size 38(!) trench in pristine condition for $100. I actually wanted tan but I really love the black. Much less common.
They're out there. Just be patient.

 

[PADDY]

The Peterman Trench...

'When' someone gets one, please-oh-please do a full review with all round photos so that we can all make an informed decision on this 'version' of the trench coat. Thanks in anticipation of one of the gents here getting one.

 

[Sin Khan]

Pictures of the Coat

Here are some pictures of the Ralph Lauren Trench Coat.

From these photos you can see the things that I liked about it enough to keep it instead of sending it back.

 

[Alan Eardley]

Sin Khan,

With the exception of the lining, in terms of features and design that RL coat is more like the 'golden era' Burberry coat then the current Burberry version.

Alan

Here are some pictures of the Ralph Lauren Trench Coat.

From these photos you can see the things that I liked about it enough to keep it instead of sending it back.

 

[Edward]

Does look like a nice coat. I liked the black version on the website. I'm tempted to over time acquire further trenches in grey, black and navy, though I'd probably be happy with just the grey for now. Would that I had the money to finance my own idea of the "complete" wardrobe!! I have a beautiful black Marks and Spencer all-wool trench that i got years ago, but it's a 38" chest and alas far too small for my increasingly porcine frame these days. Off to eBay it shall go when i have the time to organise it...

I do wish someone like Magnoli Clothiers or Aero or whoever would produce a good thirties / Bogie style all-cotton trench in a range of two or three colours, that would be fantastic.

 

[PADDY]

Marks & Spencer Trench Coat.

M&S (UK) are currently selling a 'Trench' inspired coat (see link below), which I just happend upon the other day in my local M&S store. Much more like the Bogie coat from Casablanca with the double storm flaps on the front.

I was in the Burberry factory shop the other day, and to be honest, I was not impressed by their trench coats (even at £129 because they were slight seconds, I wouldn't pay the money).


http://www.marksandspencer.com/gp/p...eywords=Trench&mnSBrand=core&size=9&rh=&page=

 

[Sin Khan]

Thanks everyone for your input.

Feraud: The problem with the Peterman site are those illustrations! You have to order the jacket to see what it really looks like. That is a major drawback to me.

Yes, I agree Feraud, the illustrations don’t tell us what we really want to know before making an online purchase. It would take a degree of faith, or perhaps foolishness to purchase something so personal and particular an item that we have only seen drawings of.

Paddy: 'When' someone gets one, please-oh-please do a full review with all round photos so that we can all make an informed decision on this 'version' of the trench coat

I agree, however, I would not ask that anyone purchase this coat until the company provides more information. I do not agree with businesses that ask for money for their goods without informing their customers adequately about them. Perhaps they have a storefront somewhere that we could check out?

Alan Eardley: With the exception of the lining, in terms of features and design that RL coat is more like the 'golden era' Burberry coat then the current Burberry version.

Interesting, I didn’t know that. Thanks

Edward: Does look like a nice coat. I liked the black version on the website. I'm tempted to over time acquire further trenches in grey, black and navy, though I'd probably be happy with just the grey for now.

You make a good point, Edward, I didn’t like the color of this coat at first and I didn’t appreciate that it offered a different style than a traditional tan trench coat until after your comments and I had a good look at it with other outfits. I also thought about the black one, yet, I try to live simply and I only need one coat, so, this one is going to have to be it for a while, perhaps a long while.

Paddy: M&S (UK) are currently selling a 'Trench' inspired coat (see link below), which I just happened upon the other day in my local M&S store. Much more like the Bogie coat from Casablanca with the double storm flaps on the front.

Have you seen the post made by, , in another thread. He posted a great link to articles written in 1919 about the original design and construction of trench coats. What an eye opener! I had no idea that the original coats came with blankets for sleeping outside and that the original silk inner liners were oil impregnated to keep out the water that might get through the outer gabardine layers. In good faith, I will never again be able to settle for the type of trench coat that I have now ever again. Here is a link to the page…

http://www.oldmagazinearticles.com/articles.php?cid=80&get=3

 

[PADDY]

Trench Coat reference photos (New Sticky)

Found at the top of the Jacket Room under "Trench Coat Reference Photos."

Here's a sample...