"Toffee" Optimo Signature Line

[Matt Deckard]

Either way, Optimo makes a quality hat.

I treat my Graphite like a red headed step child. It's taken the abuse for several months now and this Half beaver and half nutria doesn't slouch in the rain like all my other brand modern hats have. It gets softer and softer... to me that is a benefit. I've seen Optimo take flak for their light weights, though people seem to forget that that is only half their sales... they do sell heavyweight hats you know.

Light weight hats have their place and the demand for them is strong.

I actually preffer lightweight over heavyweight.

As for smoothness... some of those Cheap Stetsons are pretty darn smooth, though I wouldn't buy another one unless it were 20 bucks or less. The real determiner to whether a hat is good or not is not in the finish, but in the wear.

The only heavy duty complaint I have seen for the top notch makers (aside from slouching) is tapering. Whether it be Optimo, Gary White, GH, Akubra, or whatever I have seen reviews for all of them that complain about taper and need of reblock. If this pre-blocking procedure can cure that and make the hats as resiliant as vintage I'm next in line for one of those Toffee hats.

Joseph C. Brandstetter

 

[rick5150]

The real determiner to whether a hat is good or not is not in the finish, but in the wear.

Can this be related as well? I could probably not tell the difference between beaver fur and poodle fur, but I do like to wear my hats in extreme situations at times and found this:

Water and heat are a hats worst enemy. Combine the two by getting it wet then adding heat and you wind up with a dunce cap for a hat. We all know not to do this, but what about out in the field? What happens when you get the hat wet and the sun comes out?

The more finely pounced hats allow more water to run off them as there is no place to trap the drops of water. The quicker water can be shed from a hat, the less chance it has to penetrate. The less chance it has to penetrate, the lass chance that heat will affect is as much. I compare the felts to the old English muffin analogy. Thomases has the nooks and crannies to hold the melted butter, and the lesser brand has none, so the butter just slides off. Dang, now I am getting hungry.

 

[Nathan Flowers]

Fedora, I'll take you up on your offer sometime in the future.

Guys, I want to commend you all for keeping this friendly and civil. I think this is one of the first threads on this subject we've had without a contentious back&forth.

 

[MK]

That is due to your good character and maturity Zohar. Most others would have taken offense to Fedoras accusations....I mean "observations".

You kept your cool, which is commendable and a good example to all of us.

 

[Matt Deckard]

The hat you see me wearing in my avitar on the left. I wear it all the time and whenever it rains it turns dark grey from being soaking wet.

I have some grainy lookin' porous and furry vintage hats and I have some mercury finished super smooth vintage hats. Both have been rained on over time. For vintage the rougher finish has not added any to the taper because they just havn't tapered.

You could be correct for modern hats and ones that allow more water into the material faster can accellerate the process that makes modern hats taper, though the way I wear a hat it doesn't matter how smooth the surface is, my hat is going to get wet in the downpoor.

My super smooth vintage mercury finished hats absorb water with the same tenacity as the rougher models.

 

[Fedora]

Most others would have taken offense to Fedoras accusations....I mean "observations".

That there is such a fine line between accusations and observations says much about current attitudes. Look guys, if anyone pays big bucks for a hat, that hat has to be critiqued. We seem to have such a soft underbelly when it comes to Optimo. Why is this? I will continue to question and evaluate every hat, and if you guys can't honestly do it, I will just drop it. This can become nothing more than a PR site for this brand of hat. It seems to be that now, anyways. Do we want open discussion of the different brands? If not, I will never say a word again about such things.

My experience with the rabbit blend and beaver/nutria blend from Optimo has always been the same. The felt is fuzzy, and the latter blend feels like wool, instead of beaver/nutria. That is my observation, but not just mine, but some other folks too. Perhaps this new hat from them is different. Going by the pics, it looks as if nothing has changed. Now, perhaps the pics did not represent what the fuzz factor actually is. I will give you that. It is just the other blends from him have looked this way, and I assumed this one was too, just by the pics. This has always bothered me, especially when these hats should have a smoother finish to them, in order to be classified as "fine hats".

I think in order for me to get along here, I must either join the club and think Optimo is the best of the best, which I cannot honestly do, at this point, or to just not point out the obvious, because you guys do not want to hear it. That attitude is one that I cannot understand, at all.

Oh well. Fedora

 

[MK]

To say The Fedora lounge is an Optimo club or PR machine for Graham is not right...or correct.

You should take note that I own many fedoras. Only one of them is an Optimo. If you recall the original hat Graham made for me was not right. It failed to meet the standard that I ordered and I said that loud and clear. He made a completely new hat....and nailed it. The first hat was all wrong. If we had an agenda to just push Optimo, I would have kept silent, or just called Graham quietly.

I think the difference is that you are making hats and coming here and telling people that the hat they just bought from another vender is ok, but not as good as yours. It doesn't look good for you....or any other vender...to come here and take shots at another venders work.

You might take note of how Art conducts himself here. He makes and sells hats...fine ones at that, yet I can't recall him ever making a negative comment about someone elses work here. He lets others praise his work and the same goes for finding fault with his competitors.

Just a thought.

 

[Fedora]

think the difference is that you are making hats and coming here and telling people that the hat they just bought from another vender is ok, but not as good as yours. It doesn't look good for you....or any other vender...to come here and take shots at another venders work.

I must address this, because you are accusing me falsely. I am not in this market here, for hats. I do not do the sort of hats bought by folks here. You did not do your research on me MK. I post about felt here, not workmanship, not ribbon, not sweats, only felt, regardless of the maker. In fact, on my website, I have a link to Arts site if you are in the market for a vintage type hat. I only do Indy fedoras.

Personally, I do not care if it looks bad on me for giving my well placed opinions. My hatmaking is a hobby, with no dreams of ever it being anything else. But, if I see something that I think is odd, I will post it, regardless of who the hatmaker is. I will not pull punches when I feel that I am right about what I say. If you see it as bashing another vendor, then so be it. I do not intend it to be seen that way. Using your logic, there is no place here to bring up these sort of issues. I assume, we can only praise a product, and never dissect it the way A-2 fans do with the jackets? If so, then this site is only for patting other fans on the back for new acquisitions. Like, oh, you just bought a official wool felt Indy fedora? Man, what a nice hat, and accurate too. Do you not think that someone who appreciates hats would not chime in and tell the guy the travails of wool felt? That is all that I am doing. Why accuse me of pushing my product over someone else's? Like I said, I am not trying to sell here. All that I did was make an offer to show folks what 600 dollar felt should look like. I made the same offer before I even went into business. So, dude, you are wrong, but I do not think you are man enough to admit it.

You are just like many folks here. You guys know that I am right, and you know that I can prove it. But, if I proved my assertions, then you would have to admit you were wrong. That is all that it amounts to. You know it, and I know it. So, no more offers from me. The new motto for this place should be ignorance is bliss. And this is a very blissful place.

To show you my sincerity, I will not ever sell one of my hats to any one here. That was never my intention. Also, as of now, I could care less if you are taken in by advertising, and shuck and jive that is part and parcel of the custom hat business. In fact, it would give me great pleasure to see you guys continue to throw good money on medium grade felt. It is your money, and your stupidity. Enjoy yourself. Fedora

 

[Canadave]

For what my opinion's worth, I was enjoying this whole thread, and was learning from it. I didn't think Fedora was doing anything but offering his opinion on felt, not trying to sell his hats.

I do think that he overreacted to MK's comments, however, and hope he reconsiders his "PS" and perhaps edits it out.

I wouldn't like to see him banned, and don't think he should be.

Can't we all just get along?

David

 

[SHARPETOYS]

I re read every post and all i saw was one person trying to help another or thats my perception. I didn't see or read where Steve was trying to sell his hats or put another hatters product down.

I came here to learn about hats and i for one have learned alot and from this lounge i know i've saved a ton of money not just on hats but other things as well.

I've made new friends and also learned who to avoid.

MK. Your post on Fedora comments to Zohar hat was dead wrong in my opinion.

I hope no one is banned. We all are important here to help each other.

Roger

 

[Panamabob]

Fedora,

I've had times where I've felt less than human on here, too. I've also had times where I've been angry and felt like no one was hearing my point.


Many have ignored my questions many times on PMs and seem accusatory and better than thou at times.

Now I go to that other godforsaken (sorry Gersh) site and have to see that liar getting good business and Fedora rejoining the ranks.

I don't run both sides of the fence to make a dime as some do here (and I don't mean you Fedora I thought that you were running both sides of the fence on the other side). I don't run both sides of the fence to keep friends. All of my friends think independently and have opinions. I wouldn't have it any other way.

I used to call this the Optimo Love Club...look at my early posts. I only wanted people to know that they didn't have to pay a mint for a MOntecristi. Some have bought and have been well pleased, some have bought and say they are well pleased, but leave buts and ifs when they comment publicly, others didn't like their blocks and had them reblocked but new full well that they were getting hats blocked in Ecuador and not paying ($$$ for blocking) for it either. All a part of life. I may be considered lesser than some here, or maybe not, but I stick by my word and that is enough for me.

 

[Matt Deckard]

Originally posted by SHARPETOYS
I re read every post and all i saw was one person trying to help another or thats my perception. I didn't see or read where Steve was trying to sell his hats or put another hatters product down.

I came here to learn about hats and i for one have learned alot and from this lounge i know i've saved a ton of money not just on hats but other things as well.

I've made new friends and also learned who to avoid.

MK. Your post on Fedora comments to Zohar hat was dead wrong in my opinion.

I hope no one is banned. We all are important here to help each other.

Roger

No banning needed... let the opinions fly. There has been no effort to conceal faults with hats and felt. I know most people on this board are good natured and mean well. I know that words said on these forums can get out of hand and twisted into arguements.

For another refference, I just saw a "all Beaver" Borsalino Fedora at Brooks Brothers in Beverly Hills and the hat is not very dense and has thick hairs falling off the thing. All beaver hats are not the same.

Any hatter worth his salt will tell you that there are different types of beaver fur. Some of which hatters wont touch and some for which hatters will pay a premium.

Bottom line is you can state what you want about felt and how it is finished and how it is made but in time the truth will always show itself with wear regardless of content.

As it is this forum is more enamored with vintage felt than any one hatter. From what I see the allegiance is to Ebay and not Joe Blow custom hatter.

 

[MK]

Touchy.

You and I have bounced around for years on the same boards. I am surprised that you would take this kind of stance with me. I would have hoped that you considered me a fair man.

I don't want venders giving negative comments about their competition here. That has been my policy before you got here and it is still my policy. I am under the impression that you sell hats. If you don't sell hats, set me straight.

BTW: people here have Indy fadoras too, myself included.

Originally posted by Fedora
You are just like many folks here. You guys know that I am right, and you know that I can prove it. But, if I proved my assertions, then you would have to admit you were wrong. That is all that it amounts to. You know it, and I know it.

To show you my sincerity, I will not ever sell one of my hats to any one here. That was never my intention. Also, as of now, I could care less if you are taken in by advertising, and shuck and jive that is part and parcel of the custom hat business. In fact, it would give me great pleasure to see you guys continue to throw good money on medium grade felt. It is your money, and your stupidity. Enjoy yourself. Fedora

I had to read your name twice to make sure it wasn't Charlie. You are singing a song out of his hymn book.

I am disappointed in your response....especially the name calling.

 

[gcollins]

Keep the thread going, and let's wait for fedora and Zohar to show some pics, so we can get to the point. Is a hat sold as a clear beaver hat 100% beaver or beaver at all?

Shouldn't take away from Zohar's or anyone excitement of hats.

I'm glad to see a little maturity and thicker skin of the whole team here. The community benefits as much from dissent as it does from consent. I would hope the idea of this forum is to build the premier website for the non-secular discussion of fedoras with different people preferring different styles, materials and vendors.

Fedora, I think, is the only person left on this forum, who has the courage to speak out and challenge the status quo with his knowledge and experience.

It makes us stronger, builds character , and improves writing and argumentation skills to have our own ideas or hat purchases challenged. Zohar is one of the youngest here, and he is doing just beautifully, as MK remarked.

Now, is that clear beaver really a beaver hat? Share the love, baby.

G

 

[Fedora]

You and I have bounced around for years on the same boards. I am surprised that you would take this kind of stance with me. I would have hoped that you considered me a fair man.

You are right MK. You just did not seem fair to me. Sure, I am a vendor now, but I have been talking about this felt issue way long prior to selling hats. I just did not start selling hats, and then start talking about what I perceive to be fine felt. Let's drop it if it is ok with you. I am willing.

Now, the sun came out today, so here are 3 pics, close range, useing macro. The sun was catching the felt, and does show some fuzz, as it would using the macro feature. Now, Zohar, post some side by sides and let us see the difference in a high quality felt, and what Optimo sells as their top of the line. Here ya go. My felt and finish


Lets try that link again.http://public.fotki.com/Fedora/hats/daylight.html

 

[Gershomite]

And as the sun sets slowly in the West, so ends another episode of "How the Harried Hatter felt about Felt"

Tune in next time when we will hear Grandpa say: "How come nobody wants a screen accurate 'Robinson Crusoe' hat?"



Gersh

 

[Fedora]

Now I go to that other godforsaken (sorry Gersh) site and have to see that liar getting good business and Fedora rejoining the ranks.

Yeah, but I won't post much there. On running both sides of the fence, I am guilty of that, but remember some of my friends still inhabit that site, and if I go there, it is just because they are there. I am the type of guy, that can forgive and forget, otherwise I might become obsessed with hating someone. That is worse than running both sides of the fence, in my book. Hating someone, takes alot of energy, and it ain't good for the soul either. So, I get mad, I blow up, and it is over, just like a thunderstorm. Then, there is a calm after the storm, and that is a very good feeling.

I have always felt I have been "dissed", to use a more modern vernicular, on this site. I have heard folks say they don't like it here because it can become rather snobby, at times. Like a little clique, that only listens to certain people. This site makes me feel like Rodney Dangerfield......no respect. I must admit, that at times, I wondered if all of the idiots on the net gathered here, but I know that they don't. But we do have folks here that have ear plugs in their ears, unless the word Optimo is mentioned. And honestly, it irritates me to no end. After this thread dies, I will not bring up the quality felt issue again. It falls on deaf ears, and I don't know why I would even care if folks want to buy a lesser quality felt, but still pay astronomical prices for it. It is a joke, but a surreal joke, and that is what bothers me.

I am now a hatmaker, and this carries another responsibility, here, and at COW. You can't talk bad about another hatters wares, even if it is the truth. I can see why we should not talk about the person, like calling another guy bad names, but heck, how can you discuss felt, and hats if you don't critique the product.

I was accused as trying to run down another hat, in order that I might sell my hats. That is ludicrous, and not my intention at all. I was only arguing a point regarding felt, and that is all. I have offered several times to send out very high quality modern felt so that it could be compared to other felt, but no one wants to actually do an in hand evaluation. I made this offer prior to even selling hats. I just wanted everyone to be well educated in felt, and then we could actually have honest discussions. But, if you have never seen what I am talking about, how can you disagree with my assertions. Like I said before, and then was accused of GH behavior, I think some folks are not interested in anything but being right. I know very well, that if you did some comparisons, you could not honestly say the aforementioned felt was high quality, when you had some actual high quality felt to look at.


Too many folks equate high quality felt with soft, vintage acting felt. Nothing is further from the truth. All that you have with this felt is a body that has no stiffener in the crown, and just a little in the brim. Just because it looks and acts like some of the floppy hats of yesteryear does not equate to high quality. Remember the Burlington hats that some bought real cheap last year? Soft, floppy, and cheaply made. You want to talk denseness? A real dense felt, will not be dented, by a falling leaf.


I have access to rabbit bodies, that I can get for 17.25 each. I bought one and tried to put a good finish on it, and spent a couple of hours in doing so. What I ended up with looks like the favorite choice of many people here. It is very difficult for me to get an acceptable finish on this hat. It comes out looking like the rabbit blend Optimo, and the beaver/nutria blend Optimo. I can take a beaver body from the same company and barely pounce it, and it looks very fine, and expensive. So, it is all with what you start with in bodies. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, and that is a fact.

I posted the pics above in my other post. Bright sunlight too. Now, I am waiting for someone to say my hat is as fuzzy as the other hat. Fedora

 

[Matt Deckard]

Too many folks equate high quality felt with soft, vintage acting felt. Nothing is further from the truth. All that you have with this felt is a body that has no stiffener in the crown, and just a little in the brim. Just because it looks and acts like some of the floppy hats of yesteryear does not equate to high quality. Remember the Burlington hats that some bought real cheap last year? Soft, floppy, and cheaply made. You want to talk denseness? A real dense felt, will not be dented, by a falling leaf.

Dude... No comparison. The hat from Burlington is crap though is better than what you get from Borsalino. When it comes to sagging or cracking Optimo trumps them, Gary White, Stetson and Akubra too.

The hat from Borsalino is definately crap and a toy compared to Optimo felt. I have gotten all these wet and seen their tollerances when it comes to bending the felt around. Optimo is the only one that didn't sag or start to crack.

Don't even try to compare Optimo with Burlington or Borsalino.

Why are you trying to equate smooth with quality? I have some super smooth hats that are crap.

You offered to send me a body of the vintage felt that GH was offering and I didn't say "Pishaw ludicrous... better?... no way"... I said "I trust your opinion on what you see, and I don't need to see it in person."

If I read you right, regardless of what Optimo says their hats are made of, you just won't believe it. Is this correct?

 

[MK]

I think it is odd that you think Optimo is our standard by which all hats are measured. If you look at the posts here, you would see most members here have vintage hats. Only a small handful have Optimos. Also if you read closely, just about everyone agrees that the top vintage hats are better than Optimo. I would think even Graham would attest to that. My vintage Borsalino and my Bullocks Wilshire are my best hats....and they are my standards. I can't think of anyone that thinks Optimo are better than a good vintage hat....and a better bargain too.

I have heard of the rumors of The Fedora Lounge being an Optimo club. i think that people who are saying that don't spend much time here.

 

[jamespowers]

Oh boy here we go.
Let me just say that there are different qualities of felt---even 100% beaver felt. A hat made out of inferior beaver felt with tons of guard hairs in the mix will produce an inferior hat. No question. Yet it is still a 100% Beaver hat. The body you start with has an enormous effect on the product you end up delivering to a customer. I have seen 100% beaver hats that had more guard hairs sticking out of them than I do not know what. My day old beard growth felt smoother!
In the above case, a rabbit fur felt with few if any guard hairs in the mix will produce a better felt hat than the 100% beaver hat with a good number of guard hairs in the mix and a less than dense felt. You would likely have better use for it as a collander more than as a hat.
Now if we are talking about a top quality rabbit fur felt compared to a top quality beaver fur felt then that is another thing. Here we compare apples to apples and we can actually draw a conclusion as to which is better.
I have felt tons of felt (pun intended). Beaver, Rabbit, Nutria, Otter and various blends. The best in my book? Otter. Yes Otter. The softest most pliable and even tempered of the bunch. I first came in contact with one through Art. I knew I had to have one so I found a vintage one. Good luck in finding a new one. Otter fur is not likely to get into any blend or hat. They are too cute and probably endangered. They wear even better. Nearly waterproof due to the nature of the fur, they really perform. Wear it for three hours in a downpour and see. The only seep I got was from the center dent that probably held a cup of water the whole time. LOL
So yes, this is an attempt to take this in another direction but it is also to point out that beaver is not the be all and end all material. :cool2: I suppose today among new hat bodies it might be but there were other furry animals out there that made it into hats too. That reminds me that I have to find a mink felt hat too. I understand they make quite the felt---probably expensive as all get out. If I find one then I will relate that hat's qualities as well.

Regards to all,

J