Today's Pinup Fashion a Sly Wink to the Past - New York Times

[AmateisGal]

I've struggled with my weight ever since I had my daughter 12 years ago. I lost 30 pounds, gained back 20, lost it again, gained it back. Ironically, my health is the major reason why I have so many problems with it (which led to a hysterectomy a few months ago and I'm still fighting the weight). I don't enjoy exercising, but do it because it gives me more strength and more stamina. I'm not shedding much weight this time around, but if my blood sugars and all of that are normal, then I guess it's all good - except I hate not being able to wear clothes that I wore only a year ago.

 

[Edward]

Thank you. Now I will never again be able to read your posts without wondering IF...

It's good to have a little mystery about onesself.

I have absolutely zero health awareness. I may pretend I do, but it's really all about vanity. It's strange, but I never exercise out of consideration for myself, but rather from self-loathing. I just dawns on me, every now and then, that I actually like it.

You'll be wearing a gimp mask to go jogging next....

The only health issue I've taken seriously is my insomnia (which is what my weight-gaining meds are for, or rather against). I used to sleep on an average 4-5 hours a night max and nothing (I mean nothing) at least one night a week. That's actually a huuuuuge health liability, and it had been going on to and fro for about ten years. Getting help for that has actually turned my life around.

That is rough. Good thing you're getting it sorted. When I have one of my turns I either don't sleep or way oversleep. Neither is healthy.

 

[Flat Foot Floey]

I was thinking about this too much. So here is another "strawman" as you would call it.

High payed athletes are being reduced to what they do with their bodies.
Buster Keatons highest comedy talent is body language.
Does anbody really follow the plot in a 30s, 40s dance movie?
...
So what does a burlesque dancer do on stage? They don't stand there all nude and that's it. They have an actual choreography, often with some dancing, costumes and a punchline. They entertain they crowd and they even have fun themselves.
If you say they are just sexual objects then athletes are muscular objects and fred astaire only appeared in very silly romance movies.

 

[Edward]

I was thinking about this too much. So here is another "strawman" as you would call it.

High payed athletes are being reduced to what they do with their bodies.
Buster Keatons highest comedy talent is body language.
Does anbody really follow the plot in a 30s, 40s dance movie?
...
So what does a burlesque dancer do on stage? They don't stand there all nude and that's it. They have an actual choreography, often with some dancing, costumes and a punchline. They entertain they crowd and they even have fun themselves.
If you say they are just sexual objects then athletes are muscular objects and fred astaire only appeared in very silly romance movies.

I think Lizzie made a very good point earlier about burlesque-as-sexual-titillation being killed off by ready availability of pornography. I do believe that has a huge impact on the nature of the neo-burlesque scene being so different nowadays, in terms of its audience etc - if all we wanted was sex, or to see nudity, that's all available via the magic of the interwebs, in our own homes, for free. If what I wanted was cheap titillation or sex, I could easily get it elsewhere, so when I go and see a burlesque show I'm looking for something different. One of the best acts I've ever seen is Josephine Baker (comedy tap-dance routines), and I don't think she even ever takes anything off. It ain't about that. TBH, I also imagine there is a different way of viewing it all across mainland Europe as well. Particularly in the Germanic cultures, at least in my experience, you don't have that automatic psychological conflation of nudity and sexuality the way the Anglo-US world seems to.

 

[Flat Foot Floey]

Yes and I agree with that. But some people don't seem to understand the difference.

Josephine Baker is great. Now we talk about her as an artist and not just meat.
But of course her most famous banana skirt dance was racist and sexist. Back then this was expected and maybe she knew she couldn't get a chance in show business as a black woman. But for me she appeared like she always was above it all.
In my opinion the situation today is quite different. Burlesque dancers do it for fun. Yes, I said a hundred times but I don't believe in a blackandwhite world view were everybody is either oppressor or oppressed.

 

[Flicka]

Randomly and unconnected to everything, I just realised only personally know one girl who does burlesque and she's not only a devoted and outspoken feminist but gay too. So much for it being about sexual titillation for the male gaze...

Art is complicated, and worst of all, it might make us think and question and discuss and...

 

[MissMittens]

Maybe I shouldn't comment, being a guy and all, but it seems that nudity has reached the point of over-saturation in the collective consciousness.....What you DON'T see, or what you THINK you might be seeing. is often more titillating than what you do see. It's the reason Victoria's Secret still sell lingerie

 

[Drappa]

Particularly in the Germanic cultures, at least in my experience, you don't have that automatic psychological conflation of nudity and sexuality the way the Anglo-US world seems to.

I don't know, I've never seen as many half naked people as in my seven years of living in the UK... Admittedly it's not complete nudity, but not a summer goes by where I don't see hundreds of men walking down the street shirtless, and let's not even talk about women on a night out. I remember coming to the UK at age 18 with some friends and none of us could believe how much flesh was on display here -we weren't particularly prudish either.
But I do get your point, there is definitely a different attitude to complete nudity and sex in Germany.

 

[sheeplady]

Maybe I shouldn't comment, being a guy and all, but it seems that nudity has reached the point of over-saturation in the collective consciousness.....What you DON'T see, or what you THINK you might be seeing. is often more titillating than what you do see. It's the reason Victoria's Secret still sell lingerie

I've heard it said by two Islamic woman who opted to cover their hair later in life that the number of times they got hit more than doubled, and not just from potentially Islamic men. I remember reading an article about a woman who decided to don a burka, that she often considered stopping wearing it purely because she couldn't handle the men who sexualized her at her job (she was the only woman in her department in some type of engineering company). When she dressed like a Westerner, she never got hit on- it was like the men didn't even notice she was a female. Afterwards, it was everyday.

Those are anecdotal, but I'd believe it if it was a trend.

 

[Edward]

Yes and I agree with that. But some people don't seem to understand the difference.

Josephine Baker is great. Now we talk about her as an artist and not just meat.
But of course her most famous banana skirt dance was racist and sexist. Back then this was expected and maybe she knew she couldn't get a chance in show business as a black woman. But for me she appeared like she always was above it all.
In my opinion the situation today is quite different. Burlesque dancers do it for fun. Yes, I said a hundred times but I don't believe in a blackandwhite world view were everybody is either oppressor or oppressed.

I must check that name - I was thinking of someone currently active on the London scene.... agree your points, though.

I've heard it said by two Islamic woman who opted to cover their hair later in life that the number of times they got hit more than doubled, and not just from potentially Islamic men. I remember reading an article about a woman who decided to don a burka, that she often considered stopping wearing it purely because she couldn't handle the men who sexualized her at her job (she was the only woman in her department in some type of engineering company). When she dressed like a Westerner, she never got hit on- it was like the men didn't even notice she was a female. Afterwards, it was everyday.

Those are anecdotal, but I'd believe it if it was a trend.

Given the number of porn sites which now exist for ladies in burkas (similar in theme to the naughty nuns pages), I can well believe it.

 

[sheeplady]

Given the number of porn sites which now exist for ladies in burkas (similar in theme to the naughty nuns pages), I can well believe it.

I didn't know about the porn sites. When I read the article, I couldn't help but think how sad it was because she was doing this for her faith, and it got her the exact opposite reaction of what it was intended to do. I also thought it was kind of sad that she never got any attention (no one so much as asked for a date, apparently, even though she was pretty attractive by my standards) when she dressed in plain clothes. And to make it sadder it went to the other extreme to the point it made her uncomfortable when she changed how she dressed. It's like bizarro world or something.

 

[LolitaHaze]

This just further proves my thought that EVERYTHING in the world from apples to zebras will either be a turn on or offensive to someone.

 

[LizzieMaine]

You can point to any item in the Sears catalog, and somebody, somewhere wants to sleep with it.

 

[Amy Jeanne]

Yeppers, Lo and LM. I've been asked by men via the Internet to send them pictures of me getting a haircut. We all know getting a haircut is a naughty experience, right? lol

 

[LizzieMaine]

I was having trouble starting my car the other day, and was looking up possible fixes online -- and stumbled across a whole bunch of weird grainy videos of women having trouble starting cars. Apparently there are people who find such situations stimulating. I'll never be able to call AAA again without wondering what the guy on the other end of the phone is up to.

 

[Edward]

I didn't know about the porn sites. When I read the article, I couldn't help but think how sad it was because she was doing this for her faith, and it got her the exact opposite reaction of what it was intended to do. I also thought it was kind of sad that she never got any attention (no one so much as asked for a date, apparently, even though she was pretty attractive by my standards) when she dressed in plain clothes. And to make it sadder it went to the other extreme to the point it made her uncomfortable when she changed how she dressed. It's like bizarro world or something.

The world is endlessly bizarre. Some days I find that scary, other days I find it glorious.

This just further proves my thought that EVERYTHING in the world from apples to zebras will either be a turn on or offensive to someone.

"Thought"? Dear lady, it is empirical fact.

You can point to any item in the Sears catalog, and somebody, somewhere wants to sleep with it.

It's easy to get a cheap laugh out of the fact that in some parts of the Midwest it is (reputedly) a criminal offence to have sexual relations with farm machinery. Of course, they clearly felt a need to pass such a law.... I once accidentally stumbled on a side dedicated to some guy's adoration of plain, white canvas plimsols. Weird to me, but hey... he wasn't hurting anyone and there's a lot worse he could be doing with his time. If only we were all so easily satisfied!

 

[Amy Jeanne]

Rule 34 of the Internet -- if it exists, there's porn for it.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Rule 34

lol

 

[kamikat]

The only health issue I've taken seriously is my insomnia (which is what my weight-gaining meds are for, or rather against). I used to sleep on an average 4-5 hours a night max and nothing (I mean nothing) at least one night a week. That's actually a huuuuuge health liability, and it had been going on to and fro for about ten years. Getting help for that has actually turned my life around.

I've had insomnia my whole life. My parents tell me that even as a baby, I rarely slept. It affects all ascepts of your health and even mental well being. I wish I could get help for it but nothing the doctors have tried has worked. I typically don't get more than 2 hours of continuous sleep and usually only 4-6hrs total.

 

[kamikat]

I was thinking about this too much. So here is another "strawman" as you would call it.

High payed athletes are being reduced to what they do with their bodies.
Buster Keatons highest comedy talent is body language.
Does anbody really follow the plot in a 30s, 40s dance movie?
...
So what does a burlesque dancer do on stage? They don't stand there all nude and that's it. They have an actual choreography, often with some dancing, costumes and a punchline. They entertain they crowd and they even have fun themselves.
If you say they are just sexual objects then athletes are muscular objects and fred astaire only appeared in very silly romance movies.

Not to mention that not all burlesque performers are dancers or even remove any clothing. I have a good friend who performs with a burlesque troupe who has never removed a stitch of clothing. She's a contortionist not a dancer.

 

[kamikat]

Flickr has opened my eyes to all the weird fetishes out there. Through my Flickr mail, I've had men ask me for more pictures of my saddle shoes, of my hair in curlers, unusual, normally non-sexualized body parts, ect. There's a guy who favorites every picture I post that has a prominent elbow and he asks me to share them with an elbow Flickr group.