Today's Pinup Fashion a Sly Wink to the Past - New York Times

[Undertow]

Yesterday's pin-up/cheesecake/burlesque is not any less demeaning because society today is worse. It is generally a bad idea to judge the past by today's standards. In this case the article is judging negative aspects of the past as quaint and classy due to how much worse things are today.
Dressing like a circa 1940s stripper/pin-up, etc. in 2012 is as objectifying today as it was back then.
The subject of the article is young girl out of college. The "vintage stripper aesthetic" is simply a phase she is going through.

This thought ran through my mind the entire time I was reading the article, which is partly why I asked if young women would one day find the likes of Jameson "classy". Miss Golightly is right that most modern stars will simply evaporate back into the nothingness from whence they appeared - but I still wonder... I mean, if I turd sandwich today was a turd sandwich tomorrow, it doesn't matter what kind of bread you use, you're still eating a turd sandwich, right?

I hesitate to go further down this path of discussion because I really don't want to touch off a powder keg of emotions. I know there are a few ladies of the lounge who found us because they were interested in Bettie Page, or "rockabilly" style, or pin-up photos, or nose art, etc. I wouldn't want to start another discussion of who's who and how vintage they are, and what does/does not count as vintage, and all that rot. I'm really happy that we have so many great gals on the lounge, regardless of how they became interested in the Golden Era.

(but tomorrow's turd sandwich...it's still bad, isn't it?)

 

[Feraud]

Besides, how many women on this very forum have cut Bettie bangs? Does that mean they're objectifying themselves too?

Just to clarify, I don't think Bettie Page style bangs are demeaning to women. We are discussing the whole and not a part.
To quote a comment from the article-

“I know that back in the ’50s, her images were porno material, but they’re classy now,” Ms. Clifford said. “I thought they were beautiful.”

That's the problem right there. The growing "pornification" of society which had previously considered such business for red light districts and girlie mags are now, to quote the gal from the article, "classy"...

 

[Retro_GI_Jane]

I read this article yesterday and the take away I got from it was that once again the idea being reinforced is that anyone who dresses retro/vintage aspire to look like Bettie Page. There is nothing wrong with that but it's just so cookie cutter and old from the supersize-me rolls to the over-the-top make up. They could have at least interviewed someone who is dedicated to pin-curling their hair and wears second-hand floral dresses in an effort to achieve a more sweetheart pin up look.

I also chuckled at the whole "feminism" thing. Can't some of us ladies dress that way because we like how it looks on us, not because we're trying to make a statement?

 

[herringbonekid]

Just to clarify, I don't think Bettie Page style bangs are demeaning to women. We are discussing the whole and not a part.

you're mixing up the girly photos that someone like Bettie Page did for a living with the daywear style adopted by her modern day fans; they're not walking around town in underwear.

 

[Retro_GI_Jane]

they're not walking around town in underwear.

True, but since we are talking pin-ups, many of these women who idolize Bettie get in front of camera dressed (or undressed) in much of the same way as Bettie was. I find it slightly amusing that these women somehow find it empowering to objectify themselves the same "iconic" way the woman they are emulating was taken advantage of and objectified, believing that Bettie's style is the be all/end all in modern pin-up photography.

 

[rue]

I'm guessing y'all aren't fans of Dita

 

[Amy Jeanne]

I'm guessing y'all aren't fans of Dita

Dita is just as "classy" as Jenna, IMO. lol

Let me add I don't have a problem with either.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I wonder how Dita would do on "Information Please?"

 

[Amy Jeanne]

I wonder how Dita would do on "Information Please?"

She would be boring and lifeless, like she is in all her interviews. lol

Seriously, I don't have anything against her -- I just don't see the hype. She's also been in pornographic films, which makes her no classier than Jenna!

 

[Miss Golightly]

She would be boring and lifeless, like she is in all her interviews. lol

Seriously, I don't have anything against her -- I just don't see the hype. She's also been in pornographic films, which makes her no classier than Jenna!

I have seen some interviews with her and although she is lovely to look at, she is a bit on the dull side (but I still watch her interviews to see if she has any good tips!).

I do think that her elegant image has helped her achieve her success - I think that if she was just wearing jeans and t-shirts there is no way she would be who she is today - no one would want to buy her books and she would be probably in the same bracket as Jenna Jameson et al. I've always felt that having an outwardly glamourous/Old Style look makes people see you in a more forgiving way - that you can get away with an awful lot more. What I mean is, I have read countless times people slagging off Marilyn Monroe for having affairs (she didn't have that many really - having one with JFK didn't help though I suppose) whereas Grace Kelly & Audrey Hepburn also had affairs but because of their ladylike/demure image they don't receive the same flack that Marilyn does (having a sexy image to many means you must be a right go-er and up to all sorts), which I think is terribly unfair - but that's the way it is - you are judged on your appearance all the time even though it doesn't always show who you truly are.

 

[Feraud]

you're mixing up the girly photos that someone like Bettie Page did for a living with the daywear style adopted by her modern day fans; they're not walking around town in underwear.

I am trying to not mix up Fashion and Style with morality. Adopting a vintage porn aesthetic (or the more common actresses posing nude, releasing sex tapes, Girls Going Wild, etc.) is not in any way liberating or empowering. The idea that society condones this has severely damaged a generation of young ladies.

I mean, if I turd sandwich today was a turd sandwich tomorrow, it doesn't matter what kind of bread you use, you're still eating a turd sandwich, right?

(but tomorrow's turd sandwich...it's still bad, isn't it?)

Yep.

She would be boring and lifeless, like she is in all her interviews. lol

Seriously, I don't have anything against her -- I just don't see the hype. She's also been in pornographic films, which makes her no classier than Jenna!

Well said. Dita is attractive and strippers have their place but I wouldn't go as far as to call these gals symbols of "hip femininity" (as noted in the article).

 

[Amy Jeanne]

I have seen some interviews with her and although she is lovely to look at, she is a bit on the dull side (but I still watch her interviews to see if she has any good tips!).

I do think that her elegant image has helped her achieve her success - I think that if she was just wearing jeans and t-shirts there is no way she would be who she is today - no one would want to buy her books and she would be probably in the same bracket as Jenna Jameson et al. I've always felt that having an outwardly glamourous/Old Style look makes people see you in a more forgiving way - that you can get away with an awful lot more. What I mean is, I have read countless times people slagging off Marilyn Monroe for having affairs (she didn't have that many really - having one with JFK didn't help though I suppose) whereas Grace Kelly & Audrey Hepburn also had affairs but because of their ladylike/demure image they don't receive the same flack that Marilyn does (having a sexy image to many means you must be a right go-er and up to all sorts), which I think is terribly unfair - but that's the way it is - you are judged on your appearance all the time even though it doesn't always show who you truly are.

This is 100% true fax. lol If it were Hatchet Face running around having affairs and starring in porn everyone would be saying how she must have low self-esteem and totally ragging on her. But when it's hidden behind faux "class" then people tend to forget it. lol

 

[AmateisGal]

I am trying to not mix up Fashion and Style with morality. Adopting a vintage porn aesthetic (or the more common actresses posing nude, releasing sex tapes, Girls Going Wild, etc.) is not in any way liberating or empowering. The idea that society condones this has severely damaged a generation of young ladies.

Exactly.

 

[sheeplady]

But my sense from this article is that many of these women aren't posing nude. It sounds as if some of the women mentioned who do pinup aren't selling pictures or videos, but they're doing the shoots for themselves (or perhaps as a gift to their SOs?) It's in many ways no different than generations of people who have (since the introduction of the Brownie camera) taken their own home porn. How many of us here are innocent of that?

It is not wrong to take a naked or suggestive picture for your own gratification. It's not overly sexual, and I would find it difficult to believe that the women who were mentioned in the article, like the doctors, lawyers, and business women, only view themselves as sexual creatures and see their sitting for pinup as the total sum of their worth.

 

[AmateisGal]

But my sense from this article is that many of these women aren't posing nude. It sounds as if some of the women mentioned who do pinup aren't selling pictures or videos, but they're doing the shoots for themselves (or perhaps as a gift to their SOs?) It's in many ways no different than generations of people who have (since the introduction of the Brownie camera) taken their own home porn. How many of us here are innocent of that?

It is not wrong to take a naked or suggestive picture for your own gratification. It's not overly sexual, and I would find it difficult to believe that the women who were mentioned in the article, like the doctors, lawyers, and business women, only view themselves as sexual creatures and see their sitting for pinup as the total sum of their worth.

In the privacy of your own home is one thing. I have no problem with that. But the whole mentality of Girls Gone Wild (which you can also see on teenager's FB pages) is what I find appalling.

 

[1961MJS]

In the privacy of your own home is one thing. I have no problem with that. But the whole mentality of Girls Gone Wild (which you can also see on teenager's FB pages) is what I find appalling.

Hi

A boy from my hometown is a registered sex offender because his then 15-16 year old girl friend sent him (then 17) a topless picture of herself. He got picked up for DUI several years later and they went through his phone and found the picture. I think he did a little time for it also. You can take it, just don't send it, even to people you like.

later

 

[AmateisGal]

Hi

A boy from my hometown is a registered sex offender because his then 15-16 year old girl friend sent him (then 17) a topless picture of herself. He got picked up for DUI several years later and they went through his phone and found the picture. I think he did a little time for it also. You can take it, just don't send it, even to people you like.

later

Yes.

 

[LizzieMaine]

That's the thing. Modern culture is telling girls and young women it's perfectly fine and normal to do things like that, and providing them with all sorts of role models telling them that their function in life, first and foremost, is to be sexual playthings -- doesn't matter if they're wearing seamed stockings and a halter top or whatever the modern alternative is, the message is the same. And it's telling boys and young men that they're perfectly entitled to expect girls and young women to act that way. That's not exactly a path to a healthy view of sex for either side, especially when the kids in question are too young to fully understand the emotional consequences. (Oh wait, I forgot, modern culture doesn't believe sex *has* emotional consequences.)

 

[1961MJS]

That's the thing. Modern culture is telling girls and young women it's perfectly fine and normal to do things like that, and providing them with all sorts of role models telling them that their function in life, first and foremost, is to be sexual playthings -- ...And it's telling boys and young men that they're perfectly entitled to expect girls and young women to act that way. ...

And then arresting the boys (usually) when anyone catches them doing "what they're told".

Gotta love it.

 

[Flicka]

That's the thing. Modern culture is telling girls and young women it's perfectly fine and normal to do things like that, and providing them with all sorts of role models telling them that their function in life, first and foremost, is to be sexual playthings -- doesn't matter if they're wearing seamed stockings and a halter top or whatever the modern alternative is, the message is the same. And it's telling boys and young men that they're perfectly entitled to expect girls and young women to act that way. That's not exactly a path to a healthy view of sex for either side, especially when the kids in question are too young to fully understand the emotional consequences. (Oh wait, I forgot, modern culture doesn't believe sex *has* emotional consequences.)

Yes. This.

I'd be happier if it was the 30s and 40s females who achieved things (be it intellectually, socially or in any other field) that were picked up rather than the sex symbols.