To Avoid Leads to A "Void"?

[Etienne]

I'd like to hear some comments on the long-standing social maxim to avoid speaking of religion and politics in polite conversation. It seems to me that those two things undergird our entire social context; our beliefs concerning both of them determine how we act privately and corporately and lay the foundation for our most important decisions. I understand, of course, that the concern is that people will not behave properly while addressing such subjects--and certainly we see evidence of that all the time. Guidelines, such as respect for the opinion of others and refraining from being hostile, are mandatory for these discussions to take place and it seems that we have lost this art along the way. Sometimes I wonder if we become hostile because our beliefs on either or both of the topics are more impassioned than reasoned, and we find it difficult to articulate why we embrace them. If we ARE able to articulate and support our reasoning, and we ARE able to be gracious and respectful to others, I cannot think of a good reason we should not engage in such discussions. To avoid them creates a void, in my opinion, in important, relative, civilized discourse. Any thoughts...?

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

You're brand new here,....

.....and so you just missed a couple of uhhmm,....."discussions" of the type that you mentioned.
Things got a little dicey. :eusa_doh: Feathers were ruffled,.......:rage:,..... people left or were shown the door. :kick: :
We should be able to discuss these things without all that strife, I agree but unfortunately, someone always gets irked,...... ,....fires the first shot,....and so on.
It's because the beliefs people hold are personal, and if someone dares to disagree,..... ,....well then, "That person must be an idiot, and they think I'm wrong!" ,.....And so it goes.:eusa_doh: Some people just get defensive, even downright reactionary,...if they feel that the beliefs that they hold sacred are under attack.

And while we're on the subject, for a detailed and more accurate assessment of where you stand politically, here's a nifty test you can take. http://www.politicalcompass.org/

 

[Pilgrim]

I would offer the observation that since the Reagan years (roughly the past 20 years), the US has become increasingly polarized in its politics. This has made it increasingly difficult for people to engage in discourse while avoiding making the discussion personal or at elast strident.

Unfortunately it has also made statesmanship at the national level much more rare, to the point where I believe that national policy is more often influenced by ideology (left and right, "conservative" and "liberal") rather than fact and compromise. It's hard to compromise when your'e driven by ideology. Complicating this even further is the circumstance that religion increasingly influences those idologies. It's even harder to compromise on religion!

Therefore, threads on discussion groups which delve into politics, religion or both are usually doomed before they start.

 

[penfencer]

It's getting increasingly difficult to hold a civil discussion about issues these days. It'll pass eventually. In the meantime I like to escape from it all by visiting the FL.

 

[Not-Bogart13]

Same Ol' Stuff, Really.

I don't really think people have ever been able to stay civil or considerate about these particular topics. We just happen to live in a time when a) People talk more openly about what they really think rather than subscribe to the "popular gray suit" mentality in public, b) People are more willing to speak up when they feel offended, and c) "Society" actually cares about not offending others, ala "Political Correctness".
It wasn't so long ago, you could ramble on endlessly about the (insert least favorite ideology here), and the only ones who would care wouldn't say anything because then they'd just be singling themselves out. I'm only in my early 30's, and I can recall such a state of affairs. People's attitudes and beliefs haven't changed all that much... since before the Reagan years... they just got more vocal. (In my humble opinion). It's actually ironic that, in a time that stresses the consideration and respect of others, we (as a whole) are less considerate.
Maybe I'm totally wrong. I don't claim to be worldly. But I watch people, I listen, and I have to say it's not that hard to be civil, it's just easier to be inflamatory. And probably a bad speller.
At any rate, one of the things that keeps me coming back to the Fedora Lounge is the fact that most people here are good about keeping it friendly, and our Mods are good about laying down the law. Thus, I'm a strong supporter of keeping things where they belong.
If I have offended anyone, I appologize.
NB

 

[Section10]

It's actually ironic that, in a time that stresses the consideration and respect of others, we (as a whole) are less considerate.
Maybe I'm totally wrong. I don't claim to be worldly. But I watch people, I listen, and I have to say it's not that hard to be civil, it's just easier to be inflamatory.

I agree wholeheartedly. I think people just don't know how to behave in a conflict or when they feel threatened--they've never been taught. I also think people are far more insecure than they used to be and that makes them touchy. People don't know what to believe or think. Everything is a big mixed mess and most are hopelessly confused. Any stance that requires anger or slander or violence to defend it is a very weak stance, indeed.

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

Yes, exactly my thoughts.

I agree wholeheartedly. I think people just don't know how to behave in a conflict or when they feel threatened--they've never been taught. I also think people are far more insecure than they used to be and that makes them touchy. People don't know what to believe or think. Everything is a big mixed mess and most are hopelessly confused. Any stance that requires anger or slander or violence to defend it is a very weak stance, indeed.

The world changes the rules, and people don't know how they are supposed to respond. It is a major form of insecurity, and it turns people into reactionaries.All people know inside what is right and correct and when the world tells people that their instinctive knowledge of good versus evil, or right versus wrong, is no longer correct or acceptable, it causes extreme turmoil in some people's minds. A good reason to say that as long as I am trying to do the right thing,I couldn't care less what others think of me. Self aceptance is more important than acceptance by everyone.

 

[John in Covina]

Open Channel "D"

The difficulty of these discussions is that in the end it is controlled by those that are most "sensative" to the conflict, especially when they feel their side is being attacked. Often the result is a control of the language or shut down of discourse.

Somethings that happen are that people that live insulated lives surrounded by those that think and believe as they do, have a hard time recognizing when their "funny" statements can be seen as an attack. (How can this be? We all know or everyone I know, knows President So and so is a *******!)

So the snide remakes of some are supposed to be overlooked as erudite and witty. Then when somebody gets rude in response, the gloves come off and it gets ugly.

The best we can do is either make an area where you need to prove you are over 21 and your nomme de guere is changed so it does not drift to out here OR simply AVOID IT LIKE THE PLAGUE! There are plenty of places where the one side calls the other side names and it goes back and forth. Leave it there. Here we can have some consenses and less rudeness.

Sincerely,

 

[Dis]

This forum is considerably freer in the discussion of politics and religion than the forum I administrate. It's a huge forum with 16 Admins and 22 moderators. We found even the mere mention of a politician or a religious statement can spark off a flame fest. Most of our members are teens or early college -an age where opinions are often stated very stridently. I've had to squash discussions where I heartily agreed with the sentiment of the one who started the thread. It's just that such conversations always go south in a hurry.

To discuss things politely and calmly is a skill few possess, unfortunately.

I do appreciate being able to come here and talk a little more freely than I can on my home site.

 

[mysterygal]

With hot topics such as politics and religion, they are better to be conversed with people that are like minded...these are areas where people are very passionate about and tempers can start flaring pretty easily. I wouls not call it a void by not talking about it, how many of us had to endure a torturous family meal with a heated debate over who's more right? There are many, many things to talk about that these two topics can be fairly easy to avoid

 

[CWetherby]

I would offer the observation that since the Reagan years (roughly the past 20 years), the US has become increasingly polarized in its politics. This has made it increasingly difficult for people to engage in discourse while avoiding making the discussion personal or at elast strident.

You'd think that, but I'm reading a book with American's reactions to Pearl Harbor (where were you when you heard about it, etc.) and there were many people in the country who hated Roosevelt before the war and said so. Those who continued to hate him were quieter about it, no doubt for fear of sounding un-patriotic with our boys overseas, but they were still there. Before Pearl, there were many isolationists in this country; after Pearl, these same people were volunteering to go fight the war they had opposed.

My point, which I don't think I've yet made, is that political polarization is not a new thing in America. (I also hate it when people blame things on the Gipper!)

My opinion is that the dumbing down of Americans, thanks in large part to the education system and the media, has produced uninformed citizens who are ill-equipped to discuss issues at all, much less discuss them intellectually and with respect for those whose opinions one does not share. If all one's news comes from network TV, then one should stay out of the conversation! And for Heaven's sake, be NICE!!

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Never avoid!!!! Discussion of contentious topics and defending your views is part of being an adult, after all.

I've found that a major problem with discussion of religion or politics is that many people cannot explain why they think or feel a certain way. This is not to say they are dumb, uneducated or uncultured or anything of the sort (though one of the most pervasive ills of our society is willful ignorance). But if you cannot explain yourself, it's best to keep your mouth shut. People tend to get upset when they don't understand something. And it's worse when you challenge their views (perfectly valid) with a well reasoned argument and they find their only recourse to be flaming because they don't actually know why they hold those particular views.

I, for example, can discuss at length the virtues of modern european pseudo-socialism (the socialist democracy). Now, in mixed company, that might or might not descend into a flame battle - depending entirely upon whether the ones who don't agree with me are ideologically opposed to the concept and have reasoned arguments against it (we can have a drink and discuss it like adults) or are ideologically opposed to the concept but have no idea why (It's just wrong!!!! Insults - and drinks - thrown).

bk

p.s. I'm not opening this thread to a disussion of european pseudo-socialism

 

[mysterygal]

very true Baron, though unfortunately, most adults don't behave like such on hot topics!

 

[Marc Chevalier]

The Lounge could have a special section (I'd call it the "Political Outhouse") just for Loungers who want to participate in and/or read about such topics. It would make it easier for folks to avoid these conversations if they wished to. They'd know exactly which section to stay away from.

 

[mysterygal]

it may work....but there will always be hot heads around waiting for a good argument

 

[jake_fink]

...there will always be hot heads around waiting for a good argument

Some of the hottest managed to survive the great purge of ought-six. Gotta love that ignore function.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

it may work....but there will always be hot heads around waiting for a good argument

Problem is they can't argue effectively. An argument is just a discussion after all.

bk

 

[matei]

I'd like to hear some comments on the long-standing social maxim to avoid speaking of religion and politics in polite conversation.

As a rule I try to avoid discussing anyone's religion or political orientation - including my own - as more often than not people misundertand any comments I may make or they feel the need to beat their chest and show that their beliefs are correct.

In spite of the "political correctness" that rules this day and age, I think that people have become less tolerant, more belligerent and are offended much more easily than in the past... especially when it comes to religion and politics. Online I try to avoid "feeding the trolls", just like I would in real life.

I generally avoid bringing my beliefs up unless it has a bearing on the conversation - and even then they will just be general. Don't get me wrong - if I need to back them up I am more than willing.

There was a time when engaging in spirited, civilised debate was a great way to pass the time and share views, but the majority of people nowadays seem unable to partake in such conversation.

That is one of the things that attracted me to the Fedora Lounge, that there were (and are) quite a few people who state and defend their beliefs in an eloquent fashion, yet are mature enough to recognise valid points from those on the opposite side of the spectrum.

 

[jake_fink]

There was a time when engaging in spirited, civilised debate was a great way to pass the time and share views, but the majority of people nowadays seem unable to partake in such conversation.

I still find that can happen in person. Communicating via the internet seems to bring something out of certain people... something thin-skinned and ugly. Sometimes it's fun to bait that type of person... but never in the FL.

 

[mysterygal]

I wonder with communicating over the internet, why nastiness breaks out of people is because they have a computer to hide behind....where in the 'real' world, they may be more passive[huh]