This generation of kids...

[LizzieMaine]

I don't think that they *are* an unimportant part of society at all. Try living in New England in the winter -- you'll soon find out that the most important people in your town aren't the corporate raiders, money-jugglers and mortgage brokers, but rather the guys who drive the snowplows and fix the oil burners. But there's a *perception, especially among middle/upper-middle-class kids who've never actually dealt with the real world that such work isn't important. It all comes back to the culture -- which, at best views the working class with a sort of tolerant condescension ("she's so articulate, you'd never guess her father drove a pie truck"), and at worst with outright bigotry. The kids themselves don't know any better than to pick these attitudes up.

 

[Fletch]

And the present day allegiance of white working-class populism and proud anti-intellectualism is going to make sure that situation hangs around for a good while yet. It'll still be a feather in your cap to go to college - at least if you're a woman or a sissy who can't hack the trades - but don't you go learning how to think or write or philosomophize!

 

[Juliet]

LizzieMaine
You misunderstood. I wasn't saying that workers were unimportant, I was replying to Pompidou's post with the picture - the Necessary/Important perception and how and why it appeared/was created.

And the present day allegiance of white working-class populism and proud anti-intellectualism is going to make sure that situation hangs around for a good while yet. It'll still be a feather in your cap to go to college - at least if you're a woman or a sissy who can't hack the trades - but don't you go learning how to think or write or philosomophize!

Especially the first seems to be quite a problem)))

 

[LizzieMaine]

LizzieMaine
You misunderstood. I wasn't saying that workers were unimportant, I was replying to Pompidou's post with the picture - the Necessary/Important perception and how and why it appeared/was created.

I understood that completely, and was agreeing with you. The point I'm getting at is that it's the culture we have today that has created these perceptions -- especially over the past thirty years -- and that anyone who stops to think about the reality of it all would have to see thru those perceptions. But too many people today are too isolated from the working class to actually take the time to do that, and consequently too many people just lazily drift along swallowing what the culture dishes up.

I think the anti-intellectualism is nothing new. It's been a powerful strain in American life since at least the days of Andrew Jackson. The problem today isn't so much the prevalence of anti-intellectualism, it's more the smug arrogance of too many of today's intellectuals -- who claim to know what's best for people they wouldn't dare to actually invite into their homes. This attitude, in turn, only serves to amplify and perpetuate the anti-intellectualism that Fletch alludes to -- which, in turn, makes it that much easier for cheap demagogues to exploit those frustrations.

 

[Derek WC]

"...it's more the smug arrogance of too many of today's intellectuals..."

There needs to be a median: a peoples who can read, write, and do arithmetic, and yet not be against getting a little dirt on their clothes.

And sadly, most teenagers cannot. I however quite value the ability to read well and appreciate literature.

 

[LizzieMaine]

By intellectuals I don't mean "people who read," though -- we've come to a pretty sad pass as a society if the mere act of "reading" is enough to brand one an intellectual. When I use the term, I mean social theorists, academics, and others such as that -- people who tend to view the working class more as lab specimens than actual human beings.

 

[Juliet]

Then I misunderstood)))

See, there was this article my mother told me about recently, and I don't remember it perfectly, but I'll try to relay the important parts in a nutshell. It was about the evolution of society and work relations.
First, there was slavery - the owner had the work done for him, but he had to feed and clothe his slaves.
Not very economical, really.
So, along came the feudalism, where the owners thought - wait a minute, why do we have to feed them? Let them do it themselves, and we'll collect taxes, too. The people still had constant work, but - taxes.
Now, people are grateful if they find work, and they they're paying for it. The article's main message - Democracy is the highest form of slavery, people themselves choose to whom to be enslaved.


Although of course a slightly dramatic take, nonetheless true.

 

[Juliet]

But there is often a perception that the intellectual class does not work. Speaking as a scientist (born and bred, heh) I know many people, who are immersed in work that has many a practical and important everyday application. And it is NOT easy for them, as all the governments seems to think that it's all right to cut funds at any given time, without warning, because scientists apparently live on air and don't have to pay bills. And if a governmental contract is breached, you can wait for money for a loooong time. That sets back your research, sets back your product registration, heaps on trouble for the company etc. But that isn't something most people consider.

Then of course there are negative examples. Straight across our lab lives a physics professor. Just recently he told my mother that wasn't it swell that I didn't choose a medical career, because that was so stressful, and research is such a nice, relaxed occupation. People like that make my blood boil, honestly.

 

[Derek WC]

Ahh, that clears it up, Lizzie. You see, kids (I know because sadly, I am one) today generally have an animosity toward reading, writing, and science in general, viewing it as useless. While some of it is a lot of it is very useful, even more so after the teenage years. You should walk into a high school 'english' classroom and hear how awful most are at reading.

The way I see it, Juliet, is no matter what your profession, if you work to create a better society than you're tops on my list. What do you do as a scientist to improve your country, community, and society?

 

[Fletch]

But there is often a perception that the intellectual class does not work. [...]
Then of course there are negative examples. Straight across our lab lives a physics professor. Just recently he told my mother that wasn't it swell that I didn't choose a medical career, because that was so stressful, and research is such a nice, relaxed occupation. People like that make my blood boil, honestly.

Well...there are two signs that you are doing the wrong thing with your life.
One is having more stress than you can handle.
The other is having no more stress than you can handle.
[huh]

 

[Tango Yankee]

Many colleges today make money because they are for-profit and have low overhead because they exist mostly online. Also, these "educations" are funded by government loans, many of which are not being paid back. College has become big business at the expense of those who can't afford it and will be paid for by all of us.

That's quite a generalization that isn't very accurate.

I work for a "for profit" school. We have campuses in three states and yes, recently started an online school. We don't have low overhead. Our instructors have Masters degrees at a minimum and some have doctorates--all have experience in their fields. Our schools are fully accredited schools--if they weren't, they would not be eligible to receive federal loans and grants. We provide an education (and not one in quotes) to those who are willing to learn, just as state schools do. The educaton we provide is one that is designed to help the student land a good job upon graduation. No, the jobs won't be a couple of thousand dollars a week jobs, but those kinds of jobs are in short supply around here, anyway. The careers we provide educations for are the sort that need an education, but are still for jobs that help make the world go round.

Our schools are for the people that the state schools aren't really interested in educating--the non-traditional student. They don't have parents footing the bill, they don't have scholarships paying their way. They have families they are trying to support, they are out of work and hoping to better themselves, they have jobs they have to work at full-time and fit their education around. A lot of our students come from backgrounds where no one in their family has gone to college, and have to face family and peer pressure trying to keep them from doing so! For these students, federal loans and grants are the only means they have of paying for an education. And yet there are those who would deny them of that opportunity.

I also happen to be attending an online for-profit school that also has physical campuses. I'm working on a Masters degree. I, too, am using federal funds to pay for it, but I don't have to pay it back as it's the GI Bill. My instructors thus far have all held doctorates from well-known and prestigous schools and have impressive resumes. And the courses are not easy by any means. I will have earned my Masters when it's completed.

Now, there are those students who do take out federal loans with no intention of paying them back--those types attend both state and private schools. Admissions and Financial Aid personnel can usually spot them fairly quickly in the process. The problem is that the law does not allow the schools to deny the student access to aid based on a "feeling" so the paperwork gets put in and the loans go through.

We also know that some students will not actually use the education they receive to go out and get jobs to improve their situation. I can think of some who went to state schools that fit in that category as well. What makes it worthwhile for those of us who work at for-profit schools is seeing those that do want to better themselves and their situations apply themselves and succeed.

As for educations being paid for by those who can't afford to fund them, who do you think funds state schools? The state taxpayers pay a healthy chunk of it, and then they also get federal funds in the forms of loans and grant money. Somehow no one gets upset about that, as long as the football team keeps winning! (Speaking of which, do you honestly think that state schools aren't Big Business?)

We need for-profit schools. They fill an important educational niche in this country by providing access to education that many would otherwise not have.

Regards,
Tom

 

[AtomicEraTom]

First off, Welcome to the Lounge!

Second, this is what boggles my mind as well. My grandpa was a Union Lather. My grandma didn't work. They had a nice, new house in the Milwaukee (at the time) suburbs, a 2 story, cape-cod summer house on the river in Portage, 5 kids, 2 or more cars all on his wage. I make a good living and am a Union Teamster, live alone, rent, etc. I am racking my brains how to put license plates and insurance on an additional car to save gas. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Generally -
About the value of workers. I might be wrong here, but I think one of reasons it's such an acute social problem, that wages have shifted way off. Now, I can bring a Russian example, but I figure it was about the same in America and Europe. In the 40/50-es, a qualified factory worker could quite comfortably support a wife, two children, car, little summer house (these were very cheap, you understand, and did not count as a luxury ), etc. on his salary alone. I'm not kidding.
Now, can a qualified factory worker's salary assure all that these days? Well, no. So is it really about being important? Or about being financially secure? Say, especially in the US with the education and health system costs.
And what exactly makes the blue-collar workers an un-important part of society, if even only in perception?

I also hate that kind of ignorance of hard work. Frankly, with times as tough as they are, as hopeful as I am to go off to college and try to go onto make more money in my life, it may not be possible. The majority of people around here work in factories or on farms and it seems my peers (I graduated High School in 2009) look down their noses at their parents for having to be 'grunts' their entire lives. That kind of thinking makes me sick, your parents being 'grunts' put food on your table and clothes on your back all your life and now it isn't good enough? Likely, these parents are helping pay their kids' ways through college, as well. A luxury I do not have.

I don't think that they *are* an unimportant part of society at all. Try living in New England in the winter -- you'll soon find out that the most important people in your town aren't the corporate raiders, money-jugglers and mortgage brokers, but rather the guys who drive the snowplows and fix the oil burners. But there's a *perception, especially among middle/upper-middle-class kids who've never actually dealt with the real world that such work isn't important. It all comes back to the culture -- which, at best views the working class with a sort of tolerant condescension ("she's so articulate, you'd never guess her father drove a pie truck"), and at worst with outright bigotry. The kids themselves don't know any better than to pick these attitudes up.

There is nothing wrong with being smart, or wise, or anything by any means. My parents have always been big on education and we were taught in and out of school. My mother is very book smart and taught us things we'd need to know for school long before we were there. I could read at age 3. My dad taught me all about business and how to work on engines, how to do construction, etc.

I prefer the wise, smarter types such as Uncle Jesse from the Dukes of Hazzard. He wasn't putting on airs.

"...it's more the smug arrogance of too many of today's intellectuals..."

There needs to be a median: a peoples who can read, write, and do arithmetic, and yet not be against getting a little dirt on their clothes.

And sadly, most teenagers cannot. I however quite value the ability to read well and appreciate literature.

They won't build cars that people want is a big problem as well. That's why trucks and SUV's sell so well. People seem to still be interested in Body-On-Frame, V-6 or V-8 vehicles with plenty of elbow room. I know I love 'em!

Not so well for GM, but the exception can't be held as the rule. By and large, ruthless, enrich the shareholders at all costs business practices work exceptionally well for the shareholders. The only ones who lose are everyone else.

 

[PrettySquareGal]

That's quite a generalization that isn't very accurate.

I work for a "for profit" school. We have campuses in three states and yes, recently started an online school. We don't have low overhead. Our instructors have Masters degrees at a minimum and some have doctorates--all have experience in their fields. Our schools are fully accredited schools--if they weren't, they would not be eligible to receive federal loans and grants. We provide an education (and not one in quotes) to those who are willing to learn, just as state schools do. The educaton we provide is one that is designed to help the student land a good job upon graduation. No, the jobs won't be a couple of thousand dollars a week jobs, but those kinds of jobs are in short supply around here, anyway. The careers we provide educations for are the sort that need an education, but are still for jobs that help make the world go round.

Our schools are for the people that the state schools aren't really interested in educating--the non-traditional student. They don't have parents footing the bill, they don't have scholarships paying their way. They have families they are trying to support, they are out of work and hoping to better themselves, they have jobs they have to work at full-time and fit their education around. A lot of our students come from backgrounds where no one in their family has gone to college, and have to face family and peer pressure trying to keep them from doing so! For these students, federal loans and grants are the only means they have of paying for an education. And yet there are those who would deny them of that opportunity.

I also happen to be attending an online for-profit school that also has physical campuses. I'm working on a Masters degree. I, too, am using federal funds to pay for it, but I don't have to pay it back as it's the GI Bill. My instructors thus far have all held doctorates from well-known and prestigous schools and have impressive resumes. And the courses are not easy by any means. I will have earned my Masters when it's completed.

Now, there are those students who do take out federal loans with no intention of paying them back--those types attend both state and private schools. Admissions and Financial Aid personnel can usually spot them fairly quickly in the process. The problem is that the law does not allow the schools to deny the student access to aid based on a "feeling" so the paperwork gets put in and the loans go through.

We also know that some students will not actually use the education they receive to go out and get jobs to improve their situation. I can think of some who went to state schools that fit in that category as well. What makes it worthwhile for those of us who work at for-profit schools is seeing those that do want to better themselves and their situations apply themselves and succeed.

As for educations being paid for by those who can't afford to fund them, who do you think funds state schools? The state taxpayers pay a healthy chunk of it, and then they also get federal funds in the forms of loans and grant money. Somehow no one gets upset about that, as long as the football team keeps winning! (Speaking of which, do you honestly think that state schools aren't Big Business?)

We need for-profit schools. They fill an important educational niche in this country by providing access to education that many would otherwise not have.

Regards,
Tom

I agree I generalized and that was wrong of me to do- I apologize.

However, there ARE a LOT of for-profit schools that are not accredited in meaningful ways and use less than above board marketing to lure unqualified students in:

http://colorlines.com/archives/2010/10/for-profit_school_regulation_arrives.html

 

[Juliet]

Ahh, that clears it up, Lizzie. You see, kids (I know because sadly, I am one) today generally have an animosity toward reading, writing, and science in general, viewing it as useless. While some of it is a lot of it is very useful, even more so after the teenage years. You should walk into a high school 'english' classroom and hear how awful most are at reading.

The way I see it, Juliet, is no matter what your profession, if you work to create a better society than you're tops on my list. What do you do as a scientist to improve your country, community, and society?

As of right now, and I can't really elaborate more before it's finished, because I'm superstitious that way, we're handling a research line that, when completed, could mean a huge step in burn healing. Imagine a second or third degree burn - perfectly healed, no scar tissue at all, less possible complications, and all done with natural and ecological means! It would also contribute to less animal testing, more cell culture models, that can carry off most needed analyses/experiments.
Of course, there is still the registration procedure, search for the partner for clinical trials etc. Still we're fairly confident.

Fletch
If that would be all! But his exact words were - "Like us scientists, to come into work, drink a cup of coffee, read the news on the internet, check e-mails - and oh, it's already afternoon!" - Really!

AtomicEraTom
That kind of attitude of children to their parents simply baffles me. I don't know, maybe it's because when and where I grew up, it was understood that blue-collar jobs weren't something less . Except maybe when I lived in England, but it's hard to tell, children don't consciously think about these things much.

 

[LizzieMaine]

That kind of attitude of children to their parents simply baffles me. I don't know, maybe it's because when and where I grew up, it was understood that blue-collar jobs weren't something less . Except maybe when I lived in England, but it's hard to tell, children don't consciously think about these things much.

When my niece started at an elite college in the NYC area a couple years ago, she felt terribly intimidated by the upper-middle-class culture of the place. Her father isn't a doctor or a lawyer or an executive -- he works as a lineman for the electric company. So she told anyone who asked that her dad was an "engineer," so as to avoid the shame of coming from a working-class background, and she definitely never mentioned that she lived in a trailer growing up.

Anti-working-class prejudice is a rampant thing in American culture today, and it shows up in a million different ways if you stop to look for it. The "trailer trash" jokes, the "redneck" jokes, the "People From Wal-Mart" jokes, the "Velveeta-Eater" jokes, the "wrong kind of white people" jokes, the demonization of labor, and on and on and on. It's the last form of bigotry that's not only culturally-acceptable but actively encouraged as a sign that the person dispaying it is Not Like Them.

 

[Juliet]

LizzieMaine

It is also a very lucrative marketing strategy.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Exactly. Which is why, very often, working-class people themselves buy into it. These images are pushed so relentlessly and so mercilessly by modern culture that many working class people go to ridiculous lengths to prove they aren't working class, whether it's spending money they don't have on things they don't need, or by willingly supporting causes and ideologies that ruthlessly exploit them. Because in today's culture, the most important thing is to prove by any means necessary that you're one of These People, not one of Those People. It's self-hatred raised to the ultimate degree.

And where does this relate to This Generation Of Kids? Well, when was the last time a guidance counselor told a young student that a blue-collar job was a perfectly acceptable option? My brother-in-law makes 80 grand a year as an electric lineman, so it isn't about the money. It's about *class distinction.*

 

[John in Covina]

one perception:
"Personally, I liked the university. They gave us money and facilities, we didn't have to produce anything! You've never been out of college! You don't know what it's like out there! I've worked in the private sector. They expect results." - Dr Ray Stanz (Dan Aykroyd), Ghostbusters

 

[AtomicEraTom]

Some of us have taken the term 'redneck' and wear it with a bit of pride.

When my niece started at an elite college in the NYC area a couple years ago, she felt terribly intimidated by the upper-middle-class culture of the place. Her father isn't a doctor or a lawyer or an executive -- he works as a lineman for the electric company. So she told anyone who asked that her dad was an "engineer," so as to avoid the shame of coming from a working-class background, and she definitely never mentioned that she lived in a trailer growing up.

Anti-working-class prejudice is a rampant thing in American culture today, and it shows up in a million different ways if you stop to look for it. The "trailer trash" jokes, the "redneck" jokes, the "People From Wal-Mart" jokes, the "Velveeta-Eater" jokes, the "wrong kind of white people" jokes, the demonization of labor, and on and on and on. It's the last form of bigotry that's not only culturally-acceptable but actively encouraged as a sign that the person dispaying it is Not Like Them.

 

[Derek WC]

Juliet, that research is probably going to save quite a few lives: I applaud you and your partners (Can't think of the right word) for choosing something so honorable to research instead of something frivolous, like longer shelf life of cheese.

"Some of us have taken the term 'redneck' and wear it with a bit of pride."

That's rich. lol (No sarcasm intended)

Lizzie, when other kids at school ask me where I get my suits, I am only slightly reluctant to say Goodwill, but I'm not going to lie. I'd like to say that I got them from Magnoli Clothiers, but I can't and probably never will.