This generation of kids...

[Pompidou]

Exactly. In the end, it's a question of values, not a question of "value." If I had a kid who came to me and said "Ma, I think I want to do something worthwhile in this town -- we need a good electrician here, I'm going to become one," I'd wish him all the success in the world. If I had a kid who came to me and said, "Ma, I think I want to spend my life maximizing return to the stockholders," I'd disown him.

Everything comes down to balancing time and money. If you want to have good values, you'll have them whether it takes you one hour or ten hours to make one hundred dollars. If you make more money in less time, you'll have more time to spend helping people in other ways, and more money to help you do it. Work is just a means to an end - at least to me. When my cafe opens, I'll be working hard - averaging 66 hours a week for 30,000 a year plus profit sharing. If we succeed, our goal isn't to make more money, it's to bring on more partners till we're making the same amount of money for say, 10-20 hours a week or less. To me, wealth alone isn't the end all of success. A warehouse worker pulling good overtime can make 40,000 or more a year, but the key word is overtime. True success is making enough to do everything you want in life, while maximizing your free time to just enjoy it.

 

[sheeplady]

The danger, though -- and I'm saying this as someone who's breathed the Protestant Work Ethic in its purest form her entire life -- is that eventually you get to a generation who assumes "Huh, those people aren't rich. *It's their own fault for not working hard enough.*" Which is the biggest, most vicious lie there is.

I would sincerely argue that anybody who has honestly done a full day of hard physical work in their life can't think this way. If they do, they weren't working hard enough or long enough at it or didn't talk to people on the job.

Charity is one of the most important goals of working. A person should work hard to make their community and life better. And that includes charity of thought, spirit, and time, not just money. Not everybody has time or money, but that doesn't mean a person can't help their community in some way. A person should view helping their community as seriously as they take their paying work. We like to throw around the word volunteering- but volunteering is work without pay and should be regarded as highly.

I think that the only people who could teach their kids "work hard and you'll get rich" are the rich or people who admit they don't work hard. Kids are pretty perceptive about money, and most kids in class-diverse environments pick up on this stuff pretty quickly.

 

[AtomicEraTom]

There's a lot of value put in making the big bucks and rightly so. It's good to be a success, but I don't think that the folks who work behind the scenes making the wheels turn should be looked down upon, which seems to be the norm these days.

I plan to go onto college, if I can ever afford to and get into psychology. If it never happens, I'd hate to think my kids would think less of me because I work at a Cheese Factory instead of being a Doctor of sorts. My mother has worked in factories since my dad fell of a scaffold when he used to work construction, back in 96. My parents have always been blue collar workers, until my dad got into land-development. I actually respect them more for the fact that I know they have worked so hard for everything they have and to provide for me and my brother and sister.

 

[PrettySquareGal]

My own personal motto is, "Never let reality and common sense get in the way of a good idea".

When I read this I had a visceral reaction that I'll try to put into words all lady-like...

I don't think it's possible for an idea to be good if it is not based upon reality and common sense UNLESS you have a trust fund. Then maybe all of your materialistic dreams will come to fruition.

 

[PrettySquareGal]

Colleges make the money they do because they fulfill this niche. It'd take so many facets of society changing to change this, that I don't imagine it ever will.

Many colleges today make money because they are for-profit and have low overhead because they exist mostly online. Also, these "educations" are funded by government loans, many of which are not being paid back. College has become big business at the expense of those who can't afford it and will be paid for by all of us.

 

[PrettySquareGal]

A big problem with raising kids today is that normal unpleasant experiences and feelings that we all have are now pathologized as being frightful, deviant and in need of medicating. According to this article, more than 25% of kids are on scripted meds like "stimulants, anti-psychotics, statins, diabetes pills, anti-depressants, and sleeping pills."

Read More http://www.ivillage.com/more-25-percent-us-kids-are-prescription-drugs/6-a-311072#ixzz1IeGfIaa6

Additionally, "Nearly 210,000 cosmetic plastic surgery procedures were performed on people age 13 to 19 in 2009, according to the American Society of Plastic Surgeons."

http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/teen-plastic-surgery/story?id=12163764

I think this level of dangerous and invasive "shaping" of kids is unprecedented and IS the fault of those in charge and not the kids.

Kids are big business. It's up to the parents to not buy into it.

 

[LizzieMaine]

It's good to be a success, but I don't think that the folks who work behind the scenes making the wheels turn should be looked down upon, which seems to be the norm these days.

I think that there's far more honor in actually *producing something tangible* -- making cheese, for example -- than in simply shuffling numbers around on a computer screen, and for most of our history, the culture shared that view. When Thomas Murphy, the chairman of General Motors back in the '70s, famously stated "We're not in the business of making cars, we're in the business of making money" it was a sign of how that culture had shifted, and of where we, as a society, had lost our way.

(By the way, Mr. Murphy, how'd that philosophy end up working out?)

 

[LizzieMaine]

I think this level of dangerous and invasive "shaping" of kids is unprecedented and IS the fault of those in charge and not the kids.

Kids are big business. It's up to the parents to not buy into it.

""I put pressure on myself to look a certain way for sure, as, I would assume, most girls do at my age," Karp said. "I can always find things to change. I'm like, ugh, I'm only 19 and I have wrinkles."

Better you should just get used to it, kid, because there's a lot more where those came from.

 

[AtomicEraTom]

It's sad when we got away from taking pride in what we did, not how much we made. When business became a numbers game more than a quality game, it really hurt this country's prosperity. Outsourcing and such. It's a money game. Why have high-paid American Union-Workers manufacture this when I can have Japanese folks make it for pennies on the dollar?

I think that there's far more honor in actually *producing something tangible* -- making cheese, for example -- than in simply shuffling numbers around on a computer screen, and for most of our history, the culture shared that view. When Thomas Murphy, the chairman of General Motors back in the '70s, famously stated "We're not in the business of making cars, we're in the business of making money" it was a sign of how that culture had shifted, and of where we, as a society, had lost our way.

(By the way, Mr. Murphy, how'd that philosophy end up working out?)

 

[Pompidou]

I think that there's far more honor in actually *producing something tangible* -- making cheese, for example -- than in simply shuffling numbers around on a computer screen, and for most of our history, the culture shared that view. When Thomas Murphy, the chairman of General Motors back in the '70s, famously stated "We're not in the business of making cars, we're in the business of making money" it was a sign of how that culture had shifted, and of where we, as a society, had lost our way.

(By the way, Mr. Murphy, how'd that philosophy end up working out?)

Not so well for GM, but the exception can't be held as the rule. By and large, ruthless, enrich the shareholders at all costs business practices work exceptionally well for the shareholders. The only ones who lose are everyone else.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Which is exactly the problem. Our priorities, as a society and as a culture, are severely and seriously warped. And the kids that are being raised in that society and culture are going to be the ones left holding the bag when the reckoning comes.

 

[Derek WC]

I take quite a bit of pride (Of course, not sinful pride) in my woodwork: I recently made a table that took me darn near half a year to make for my mother of western cedar. I was not paid money, but when she told me how good a job I had done on it, and when my shop teacher said that he wished his other students would work half as hard as me, I felt better than if I'd have been paid for it. Sure it would have been nice to get paid, but I did a good deed.

Figure I'd say this. My mother always tells me to go to a 'salon' and get a cheap haircut than get my usual fifteen dollar haircut at the barber I've been going to for a year and a half, and to stop getting Brylcreem and get something cheaper. People today are generally not faithful, as if they can throw away any relationship they want. Men today can have a child with a woman while not married, and than throw her to the wolves. It makes me sick.

 

[Juliet]

There's a lot of value put in making the big bucks and rightly so. It's good to be a success, but I don't think that the folks who work behind the scenes making the wheels turn should be looked down upon, which seems to be the norm these days.

I plan to go onto college, if I can ever afford to and get into psychology. If it never happens, I'd hate to think my kids would think less of me because I work at a Cheese Factory instead of being a Doctor of sorts. My mother has worked in factories since my dad fell of a scaffold when he used to work construction, back in 96. My parents have always been blue collar workers, until my dad got into land-development. I actually respect them more for the fact that I know they have worked so hard for everything they have and to provide for me and my brother and sister.

My family comes from what was called the intelligent and artistic part of society (former genteel poverty, really). When I was little, my father lost his position as a scientist and then worked at a Navy Factory to support the family. We certainly didn't think any less of him, in fact, both my mother and I find it exactly what any decent man would do, and something to be proud of.

 

[Derek WC]

Oh yes, I was going to say this: I highly respect the man working by the sweat of his brow. Anybody who expects me to think higher of a man sitting on his rump, than a working man slapping the grease of progress on the cogs of civilization has another thing coming.
I don't care much for generals, except those few who go out on the field, such as Patton and McArthur. Patreas I can say is not my idea of a fine general.

Welcome to the Lounge, Juliet.

 

[sheeplady]

I think that there's far more honor in actually *producing something tangible* -- making cheese, for example -- than in simply shuffling numbers around on a computer screen, and for most of our history, the culture shared that view.

The problem becomes at what point do you consider something tangible? Is a school teacher a lesser job than a mechanic, just because they don't make something tangible like a car? Is the nurse less of an important figure than the surgeon, because the surgeon puts in stitches and the nurse only keeps the patient alive before and after?

Really, I don't think we should be making such strict lines in the sand. The truth is that we need teachers, nurses, mechanics, and surgeons to make our society go. I don't like the idea of telling a hard working person that their job is lesser than someone else's. I'm really not into going around and judging strangers' worth based upon solely how they earn their paycheck. It is as bad as judging their worth on how much they get paid.

*People who do harm to society through their jobs (such as using children to smuggle or test drugs) are outside of this statement.

 

[LizzieMaine]

The problem becomes at what point do you consider something tangible? Is a school teacher a lesser job than a mechanic, just because they don't make something tangible like a car? Is the nurse less of an important figure than the surgeon, because the surgeon puts in stitches and the nurse only keeps the patient alive before and after?

Those are tangible things in that they fill a tangible role in society. We need food, we need health, and so on. But the question is, *what are the priorities?* Is the *true purpose* of a pharmaceutical company actually producing pharmaceuticals that improve the well-being of society -- or is its main function producing an enhanced stock value for its investors, regardless of the damage to society as a whole? Too often today the answer is the latter -- and that's what I'm attacking. I hold that culture in absolute contempt -- not necessarily the individuals who are the dupes and victims of it. They often don't know any better -- because nobody ever taught them right from wrong.

 

[Pompidou]

While there needs to be some pride brought back to blue collar labor, it needn't be at the expense of white collar labor. There's a right job for everyone, whether that's fry-cook, janitor, plumber, electrician, engineer, surgeon, lawyer or CEO.

 

[John in Covina]

There are a couple of ideas about vocation that come up in Bible study now and again. Luther had some insights that Wingren put together and recently Veith wrote a little further on it.

One point is that people doing "mundane" jobs that seem less than exciting or important are part of what is truly important.. That is in spite of the fact that these jobs are forgotten or devalued by many in the past as well as today.

 

[Pompidou]

Sums up the popular consensus on mundane labor and why nobody will strive for being necessary when it's considered better to be important.

 

[Juliet]

Welcome to the Lounge, Juliet.

Thank you, Derek!
Also, I must agree with you on value of things. As a small example, none of my friends understands why I have most of my clothes made. They admire the quality, they agree one can't buy clothes like that nowadays. Still, I think most think I'm crazy, or have a bad case of showing off.
And you're right about the relationships, too. Not only men, women too seem not to take anything seriously. Led to a discussion one night with my mother, how these days people don't get engaged, they move together.

Generally -
About the value of workers. I might be wrong here, but I think one of reasons it's such an acute social problem, that wages have shifted way off. Now, I can bring a Russian example, but I figure it was about the same in America and Europe. In the 40/50-es, a qualified factory worker could quite comfortably support a wife, two children, car, little summer house (these were very cheap, you understand, and did not count as a luxury ), etc. on his salary alone. I'm not kidding.
Now, can a qualified factory worker's salary assure all that these days? Well, no. So is it really about being important? Or about being financially secure? Say, especially in the US with the education and health system costs.
And what exactly makes the blue-collar workers an un-important part of society, if even only in perception?