This generation of kids...

[Wesley Milton Dagwell III]

One does not feel stupid until one needs the skill to survive or get ahead. When skills such as math are held as a skill not needed one becomes hostage to those that do have the skills. Imagine having to have others balance ones check book or help with creating a household budget.

Knowing a skill does not hamper one in life and believing that knowledge is a waste of time makes for a smaller existence by limiting one's own horizons...

It's true that math skills are important - that's why they are still taught, of course. But we don't have to do the calculator's job. Just understand the job that it does. The principles of maths.

I never meant to imply that knowledge, in general, is worthless. Just that quite a lot of it is entirely unnecessary and unhelpful - there would be few greater wastes of time than learning things that are completely irrelevant. There's so much more to learn that is at least slightly relevant and we'd be old men before we knew it all.

The things that are important to us may not be important to future generations, even the next generation. I'm just saying one should take care not to be resentful of them for that. If they had a need for it then they'd pursue it.

 

[sheeplady]

One does not feel stupid until one needs the skill to survive or get ahead. When skills such as math are held as a skill not needed one becomes hostage to those that do have the skills. Imagine having to have others balance ones check book or help with creating a household budget.

Exactly. But I am a bit of a survivalist. I see cooking, basic sewing, basic car repair (at least in the US- maybe bike repair in some places), budgeting, gardening, basic first aid, etc. as good skills that everybody should have, even if they never need to use them in their adult lives. I think they should be taught in high school.

I asked in my undergraduate course how many people had taken or been taught at one time how to do CPR- in high school, etc. I only had about 3 people raise their hands- one of which worked as an EMT- out of a class of 25 that day. That is a basic skill that can save countless lives. It is not like when somebody falls into cardiac arrest you can wait for a professional to come- you need to start right away to increase the odds of survival.

And if you can't make change in your head, how do you know if a cashier gave you the wrong amount?

 

[John in Covina]

For many the goal in life is to never stop learning but see the flip side as ignorance is bliss. until something happens.

If something happens and technology fails either for a short period of time or for a long period of time how out of sorts will people be? When one is totally reliant on using a calculator, if it fails and without a replacement does one's life come to a halt? The thing is that there are examples of people that in spite of learning a skill cannot make use of them later if they lose the skill and being totally reliant on a device will not excercise that skill. Newton invents calculus with out the aid of a calculator and a lot of aerospace design was done using a slide rule for speed but the user could still do the math by writing it out.

There are several large scale EMP (electromagnetic pulse) type scenarios where an event either man made or natural such as sunspot activity may knock out electricity and electrical devices. Sunspot activity has knocked out cell phone connectivity in some areas and likely to do so again. We have had a period of lower activity and scientist have speculated that there can be activity levels of much higher magnitude. Just as we have seen in recent past some of the largest earthquakes in living memory nature always seems to have a wildcard to throw when it is least expected. What I am saying is knowing some of these basics is just a version of disaster training because you don't know when some type of system will fail and be back to needing a basic skill that one did not pursue. Here in the US everyday people die because they don't know the basics. Every winter people die because they got trapped in their car in a snow storm and were unprepared. Every year people die hiking in the desert or wilderness areas because some unforeseen situation where a skill they did not pursue would have saved them.

We are not talking about how to make buggy whips here.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I asked in my undergraduate course how many people had taken or been taught at one time how to do CPR- in high school, etc. I only had about 3 people raise their hands- one of which worked as an EMT- out of a class of 25 that day. That is a basic skill that can save countless lives. It is not like when somebody falls into cardiac arrest you can wait for a professional to come- you need to start right away to increase the odds of survival.

There was a time when this sort of stuff -- basic survival skills, first aid, etc. -- were taught in the Scouts and similar organizations, and most kids had some exposure to at least basic procedures they could use in the event of an emergency. Today, those organizations are struggling to survive -- it's just not fashionable to belong to such groups anymore, so there's no place for kids to learn this type of thing.

I refer people who haven't seen it yet to the "What A Girl Scout Knew In 1923" thread in the Powder Room for a look at what the typical 12-year-old girl of that era was likely to be able to do. How many 12 year olds do we know today who are able to do such things? And if none, why?

 

[John in Covina]

I refer people who haven't seen it yet to the "What A Girl Scout Knew In 1923" thread in the Powder Room for a look at what the typical 12-year-old girl of that era was likely to be able to do. How many 12 year olds do we know today who are able to do such things? And if none, why?

The answer from today is as above: Because this type of knowledge is seen as not necessary, it is relegated to the few that don't understand that if it was necessary it would be pursued by society. The view point is How could there be any value in something I will never use?

I look at some of these things such as camping equipment and personal defense as in the "I rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it." Others seem to have a "Never do for yourself what others can do for you mindset." There is a balance between the to opposite ends.

In the case of being self reliant versus always relying on people or things outside yourself. Self reliant works for all the things that you can do for yourself except for things like surgery and can live fine in a world where they don't need to be self reliant. However those that are not self reliant cannot live well in a world when self reliance is what is needed. The problem is that natural or man made disturbances to the systems in place will not perturb the self reliant as much as the non self reliant. It is sort of a version of handicapping oneself through lifestyle.

 

[martinsantos]

About math, specially, I desagree with you, Wesley. To calculate without a calculator isn't a waste of time. This is an mental exercise. It's just like to play sports, instead to stay in front of a Nintendo.

I studied maths with a very interesting Japanese method, the Kumon. Fully based in growing complexity and quick answer. I don't believe it would work with a calculator. At least to me, Kumon method worked very well.

It's true that math skills are important - that's why they are still taught, of course. But we don't have to do the calculator's job. Just understand the job that it does. The principles of maths.

I never meant to imply that knowledge, in general, is worthless. Just that quite a lot of it is entirely unnecessary and unhelpful - there would be few greater wastes of time than learning things that are completely irrelevant. There's so much more to learn that is at least slightly relevant and we'd be old men before we knew it all.

The things that are important to us may not be important to future generations, even the next generation. I'm just saying one should take care not to be resentful of them for that. If they had a need for it then they'd pursue it.

 

[John in Covina]

I don't know what an addition table is, but I did learn the times table by rote - so after 12 x 12 I am stumped.

It's like the multiplication table only filling in the added quantities instead of multiplying. They drew this out on the chalk board and with a pointer stick would walk us through the the rows and we chanted along.

One and one is two, one and two is three, one and tree is four, and so. We first went thru the visuals of "I have three apples and add one" or later subtracting. But the chanting was more of building a word association that could lead you direct to an answer by rote to speed up calculations until other math concepts could be assimilated.

 

[John in Covina]

I don't know how it worked but I have seen little kids on TV use a version of math called "chisenbop" that was so fast. They had a set up where their hand was some how representative of a math problem and they literally calculated on it as fast as using a calculator. Little kids could do huge multiplication problems lightning fast.
http://www.cs.iupui.edu/~aharris/chis/chis.html

 

[Puzzicato]

If the skill or the knowledge are not applicable to our lives - there is little necessity to learn them and it is no longer a bad thing if we don't. Think on how many arts and crafts today were vital skills yesterday.

Things like penmanship and mental mathematical ability could be considered amusing hobbies to our descendants. It doesn't mean that they will be stupid.

I thought the point of mental arithmetic and some of those other skills was actually to build neural pathways. You may never use them for arithmetic, but you have built them for other things that may be useful.

It's like the multiplication table only filling in the added quantities instead of multiplying. They drew this out on the chalk board and with a pointer stick would walk us through the the rows and we chanted along.

One and one is two, one and two is three, one and tree is four, and so. We first went thru the visuals of "I have three apples and add one" or later subtracting. But the chanting was more of building a word association that could lead you direct to an answer by rote to speed up calculations until other math concepts could be assimilated.

Thanks John - I am fairly sure we never did that, but then in my earliest counting days I was at a Rudolf Steiner school and I think we just used Cuisenaire rods. It was only when I went back to mainstream schooling that the times tables were involved.

 

[sheeplady]

There was a time when this sort of stuff -- basic survival skills, first aid, etc. -- were taught in the Scouts and similar organizations, and most kids had some exposure to at least basic procedures they could use in the event of an emergency. Today, those organizations are struggling to survive -- it's just not fashionable to belong to such groups anymore, so there's no place for kids to learn this type of thing.

Well, the organizations have fundamentally changed too. I really don't think that the Girl Scouts teach that sort of stuff anymore (or at least around here they don't). The Girl Scouts are still doing pretty good here, much better than other groups, like 4-H.

Being a former 4-Her, this makes me sad. But a lot of what is wrong with 4-H has to do with the administration of the program. I was actually told by a state level admin that it wasn't her problem and she wasn't concerned about differing access to services across counties in the state- HER home county was still getting 5x the 4-H funding of the poor counties. Needless to say, I think the poor counties need 4-H more than the richer ones. When I recommended that the counties with more funding could send older 4-Hers to work with young individuals in the poorer counties or raise money to provide supplies or to do trips to these counties, she told me that her county competes with these individuals at the state level, so why would they help? If they help other counties, the poor counties could send someone to the competition- and they might win! This woman is not the only person I've met that thinks like that. Sometimes I get the "that's so sad. but what can we do?" attitude. This is NOT the 4-H that I grew up with.

I do think there is a middle ground someplace for groups like this inbetween teaching these survival skills and preparing kids for careers in industry. (I have heard that some Girl Scouts do things like teach programming in order to encourage girls to go into science and tech careers, which is something I would support.)

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Well, the organizations have fundamentally changed too. I really don't think that the Girl Scouts teach that sort of stuff anymore (or at least around here they don't). The Girl Scouts are still doing pretty good here, much better than other groups, like 4-H.

Being a former 4-Her, this makes me sad. But a lot of what is wrong with 4-H has to do with the administration of the program. I was actually told by a state level admin that it wasn't her problem and she wasn't concerned about differing access to services across counties in the state- HER home county was still getting 5x the 4-H funding of the poor counties. Needless to say, I think the poor counties need 4-H more than the richer ones. When I recommended that the counties with more funding could send older 4-Hers to work with young individuals in the poorer counties or raise money to provide supplies or to do trips to these counties, she told me that her county competes with these individuals at the state level, so why would they help? If they help other counties, the poor counties could send someone to the competition- and they might win! This woman is not the only person I've met that thinks like that. Sometimes I get the "that's so sad. but what can we do?" attitude. This is NOT the 4-H that I grew up with.

I do think there is a middle ground someplace for groups like this inbetween teaching these survival skills and preparing kids for careers in industry. (I have heard that some Girl Scouts do things like teach programming in order to encourage girls to go into science and tech careers, which is something I would support.)

You ought to write a letter to the head office of 4-H.

 

[sheeplady]

You ought to write a letter to the head office of 4-H.

I have. I've also taken every opportunity I could to talk to anybody and everybody I ever met who is at the state level or higher. There are still lots of good people who are working for 4-H (including lots of volunteers), so I don't mean to criticize them all. I benefited greatly from 4-H, so it is just sad to see some of the decisions that have been made in my state.

I actually stopped being a state-level judge for the public presentations because of this (and I also moved, making it a several hour drive). The last time I judged, I argued with three other judges about the quality of clothes that the presenters needed to wear. Apparently neat, clean, and ironed was not good enough for them. Then I made a bunch of people angry when I asked why out of over 60 counties in the state, only 18 were represented. Actually, upon reflection, I might have gotten myself uninvited.

 

[Undertow]

That's the way we learned to multiply -- and multiplication is one of the few math skills I still have. I was fine with math until the fourth grade, but long division lost me, and i never recovered. Had two years of algebra in high school, and have had absolutely no earthly use for it in the thirty-odd years since, so I've completely forgotten how to do it.

I can't do any math in my head, though, not even simple addition and subtraction. I have to write it out with pencil and paper.

I passed Algebra I with a C- and failed Algebra II in high school. The next year I failed Physics (too much math) and only barely passed Geometry with a D.

In college, I took a Philosophy class in Logic. Mind, this was a university level course. Passed with a B. So all that business about high school math expanding one's capacity for logic is a farce.

And to this day, the only X that crosses my mind is the one who keeps sending me emails...and I'd better not type out what X equals...

 

[jamespowers]

I passed Algebra I with a C- and failed Algebra II in high school. The next year I failed Physics (too much math) and only barely passed Geometry with a D.

In college, I took a Philosophy class in Logic. Mind, this was a university level course. Passed with a B. So all that business about high school math expanding one's capacity for logic is a farce.

And to this day, the only X that crosses my mind is the one who keeps sending me emails...and I'd better not type out what X equals...

I suppose I should say that I have made use of the Pythagorian theorum for figuring a diagonal when I am working with wood or some such thing where I need the measurement of a missing side. I also use the algebra x to figure weight for the post office when my stupid scale only works in 10ths instead of 16ths. Easy conversion in fractional style. Realize of course that I did not do great in Geometry of Calculus. However, I do have a degree in Corporate Finance with a minor in economics---go figure.

 

[ButteMT61]

I suppose I should say that I have made use of the Pythagorian theorum for figuring a diagonal when I am working with wood or some such thing where I need the measurement of a missing side. I also use the algebra x to figure weight for the post office when my stupid scale only works in 10ths instead of 16ths. Easy conversion in fractional style. Realize of course that I did not do great in Geometry of Calculus. However, I do have a degree in Corporate Finance with a minor in economics---go figure.

But can you read a thermometer?Calculate ºC to ºF? lol

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

Yes, calculus was the stumbling block for me. I just couldn't get my head around it. It's a pity because I love technical stuff* and would have loved to have gotten into engineering if only I had been able to master calculus.

*At least the kind that involves moving parts. Computers is another story.

 

[jamespowers]

But can you read a thermometer?Calculate ºC to ºF? lol

NO! That whole rush to brainwash us, back in the 70s, into using the metric system failed.

 

[DesertDan]

Thank God!

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

NO! That whole rush to brainwash us, back in the 70s, into using the metric system failed.

That was another thing I had a hard time learning but I quickly picked it up when I developed an interest in guns. I know 5.56mm, 7.62mm and 9mm.

 

[AmateisGal]

Ask my dad how well I understood geometry - I used to spend many a night in tears because I could NOT get it. He, as a carpenter and incredibly intelligent individual, couldn't understand why I was having so many problems. I took Algebra I and II and Geometry - I stopped at that. It was pure torture.