The State of the Art in Japanese Outerwear: Freewheelers and Co 2012-13 Collection!

[majormajor]

Here's a thing.

In 1966, I bought my first Levi's jacket - a then current Type 3. In old (pre-decimal) money, it was 65 shillings - which equates to £3.25 in modern UK terminology.

A year later, I begged, borrowed and stole enough money to buy a Levi's Cowhide Type 3. It cost 39 guineas - that's around £41.00.

So the Cowhide version cost around 12.5 times what the denim one did.

Wind forward to now. The Levi's "trucker" as they now call it costs (an overpriced) £80 in the UK now. 12.5 times that would give you £1000. So the repro Cowhide that Levi have just introduced is cheap at less that £700. But the "gold standard", if we need one, should be somewhere between those figures. Levi's did, after all, pretty much invent "workwear" in the first place.

So that makes Eastman & Aero very good value. And Japanese stuff still overpriced. Just my personal opinion, of course

 

[indigoeagle]

These three shirts are great, particularly the last one. Need to find a place to check these guys out.

http://www.redcatsaloon.com/rcs/archives/13563

Perhaps a reason to make a little trip to the Sea of Japan (Ishikawa prefecture) and check out this shop that seems to have one of the largest ranges of their stuff. Their engineers and cap toe boots in horse hide also look great:
http://www.phaeton-co.com/

 

[indigoeagle]

I'm still kicking myself for not buying this amazing calico shirt when I had the chance (it was even on sale); can't find it anywhere now
http://www.redcatsaloon.com/rcs/archives/5956

Wow, on sale also, should have been a no-brainer. But I know this, stuff in Japan sells so quickly. If one looks something, one shouldn't hesitate, otherwise it will be sold out.
This is very similar to the Apache collection Calico by MF. Very nice.
Here's another stockist. But it's also sold out there:
http://www.pikey.co.jp/fs/shops/c/oldjoe

Also like OJ's warm up jacket in a brownish Brown's Beach Cloth:
http://www.pikey.co.jp/fs/shops/oldjoe/old-warm-up-jkt

 

[Sloan1874]

Love it: http://www.phaeton-co.com/?pid=49021205

 

[indigoeagle]

Here's a thing.

In 1966, I bought my first Levi's jacket - a then current Type 3. In old (pre-decimal) money, it was 65 shillings - which equates to £3.25 in modern UK terminology.

A year later, I begged, borrowed and stole enough money to buy a Levi's Cowhide Type 3. It cost 39 guineas - that's around £41.00.

So the Cowhide version cost around 12.5 times what the denim one did.

Wind forward to now. The Levi's "trucker" as they now call it costs (an overpriced) £80 in the UK now. 12.5 times that would give you £1000. So the repro Cowhide that Levi have just introduced is cheap at less that £700. But the "gold standard", if we need one, should be somewhere between those figures. Levi's did, after all, pretty much invent "workwear" in the first place.

So that makes Eastman & Aero very good value. And Japanese stuff still overpriced. Just my personal opinion, of course

For your comparison I think you should refer to the LVC trucker jacket (after all the cowhide one is from LVC, too, right?)
. And that one costs a cool £169.
http://sivletto.com/system/search/product.asp?id=3899&m=128&c=426&page=1&rnum=2
The type 1 and 2 ones even £195:
http://www.endclothing.co.uk/brands/levi-s-vintage/levi-s-vintage-1953-type-ii-denim-jacket.html

Multiply that and you're even above the Japanese leather jacket price.
The thing is this is a niche market: production numbers are small, thus inefficient product, plus the characteristics of these items are that often (hopefully) they're manufactured the old way, involving manual labour at high wages. Plus the demand here seems to be relatively price-inelastic, or even inverted. At least in Japan.

 

[majormajor]

Hi IE. You are mangling your maths, my friend. If I compare the LVC denim to the LVC Cowhide, then the true price upscale is around 4x rather than 12.5x. So hide jackets are now cheaper than they ever were!
And at £700, LVC make the Japan stuff look overpriced, whichever you look at it.
All the references to "niche market, small production, made in the old way, high wages" apply equally to the likes of Eastman & Aero, and are no justification for stupid prices.
Regarding price inelasticity, someone needs to translater the following phrase into Japanese: "Yo can fool all the people some of the time etc...."

 

[indigoeagle]

I just wanted to kind of compare apples with apples. The two jackets you bought at the end of the sixties were probably both high quality items (selvedge denim, produced in the US perhaps).
The 'cheap' denim trucker jacket is not produced with selvedge and neither in the US or EU, while the leather one is.
So, yes, the multiple seems to have come down from 12.5 to not even 4 between denim and leather. The reason for this is probably that relatively speaking hardly any denim is produced anymore in the US/EU and hardly any jackets are made there. So the price of such a denim jacket has risen overproportionately, while the leather and leather jacket industry is still comparatively active.

And IMHO the reason for the high prices in Japan besides the high quality materials and the high standard/costs of living/wages is that the Japanese market is very homogeneous and then relatively huge. That's why so many items are sold out so quickly.
While in the US and Europe only a very small subset of consumers is interested and willing to pay for these kind of items (perhaps 0.2%- just a guess), in Japan there are many more (more like 5%; also guessed).
And then there's the phenomenon that people often will perceive an item to have a higher value if it's more expensive. We know this from the French and Italian brands.

 

[majormajor]

I just wanted to kind of compare apples with apples. The two jackets you bought at the end of the sixties were probably both high quality items (selvedge denim, produced in the US perhaps).

But that, my friend, is the nub of the issue. Yes they were produced in the US, and yes, they were selfedge. But the very LAST thing they were was "high end". They were "workwear", sold at workwear prices. The idea that workwear could ever be high end was, in the 60's, laughable.

Nowadays, folks who weren't around back then have bought the lie, completely. Jeans are either "vintage" or "designer" - and if they are cheap, they must be crap.

Yes, the Japanese market is, in relative terms, big. But, whichever way you look at it, the rest of the World is a bigger market. But the Japanese manufacturers ignore it. Maybe the rest of the world is less gullible??

 

[handymike]

Wow, another thread that gets bogged down in the "value to $$" babble....
That makes what, 6 in a week?
These are really cool garments!
No, I won't be buying any. But I do enjoy seeing them, Thanks Ishmael!
And No, I won't be buying a Himel Heron either, that's just my situation.....
But I will be going over to Self Edge to try one on next time I'm over that way. And I'll probably be spending too much time browsing the classifieds and EBay looking for one at a discount- maybe for the next 2 years....
How much is time worth to you?
Major, I'm gonna call you out on this one, seeing your posts on the Alex leather thread. You do come off Stodgey.
Aero puts out a solid product, and I like some of their designs- a lot. They are not the only quality jacket makers in the world, however.
Back on thread!!!!!
Keep the Japanese creations coming....
Damn the expense!!!!!!

 

[indigoeagle]

But that, my friend, is the nub of the issue. Yes they were produced in the US, and yes, they were selfedge. But the very LAST thing they were was "high end". They were "workwear", sold at workwear prices. The idea that workwear could ever be high end was, in the 60's, laughable.

Nowadays, folks who weren't around back then have bought the lie, completely. Jeans are either "vintage" or "designer" - and if they are cheap, they must be crap.

Sure, but that's the case with many thing. For example horse hide boots. They used to be a standard, sturdy workwear boot. Now they're something luxurious.
It's again relative. First of all the majority of people then (ok, not the 60s but before) didn't have the luxury to spend much time and money on shopping. You bought something when you needed it.
And there wasn't so much crap produced. Now we have mass production with very low quality for compulsive, affordable shopping. Then most goods were still produced with high quality.

Yes, the Japanese market is, in relative terms, big. But, whichever way you look at it, the rest of the World is a bigger market. But the Japanese manufacturers ignore it. Maybe the rest of the world is less gullible??

The Japanese always have had special appreciation of high craftsmanship and of 'famous' products. They choose the best of the best. Red Wing, Cabourn, Viberg among others are very popular in Japan because of their great products and quality. And people are willing to pay for that.
You also find these people in Europe and US but not so many.
But I agree with you, that some prices are amazingly high and it's mind boggling that stuff still gets sold out. And they hardly have any sales.

 

[Ishmael]

Indigo Eagle, thanks for that link. I'm really liking these boots.

http://www.phaeton-co.com/?pid=52849358

 

[HorseHide]

Indigo Eagle, thanks for that link. I'm really liking these boots.

http://www.phaeton-co.com/?pid=52849358

Ugh! I've got to stop following your posts Ishmael! I'm waiting for a pair of the Lofgrens and now I'm looking at these!

 

[Ishmael]

Horsehide, congrats on the Lofgrens! Did you get them from John? What size did you go with?

The FEE boots are pretty cool. (link not working at this moment). My next pair will be something along those lines (roper / pecos).

 

[HorseHide]

Horsehide, congrats on the Lofgrens! Did you get them from John? What size did you go with?

The FEE boots are pretty cool. (link not working at this moment). My next pair will be something along those lines (roper / pecos).

I went with the 9s (fingers crossed). John is a great guy, very helpful.

 

[Ishmael]

I think you made the right choice. I think the Lofgrens are roughly equivalent to the Tru-balance last in sizing. If you're a 9 in TB, then I think a 9 in Lofgrens will be great.

Post some pics when you get em!

 

[767fo]

These are the new Himel boots that will be available at Self Edge in May. I have a pair of MF Road Champs and I think I might add these.

 

[Ishmael]

I like em. Except for the heel. Not liking the block heel on this type of boot. (can be taken care of down the road, of course).

Any idea who is making these?

(perhaps we should move to the Engineer Boot thread?)

 

[767fo]

I like em. Except for the heel. Not liking the block heel on this type of boot. (can be taken care of down the road, of course).

Any idea who is making these?

(perhaps we should move to the Engineer Boot thread?)

Sorry about that. You guys were talking about boots and I saw these on a blog this weekend. They are made by Himel Bros. Thanks for putting up all the links to the Japanese jacket sites. They have some very nice civilian jackets.

 

[Ishmael]

Didn't mean to imply that your comment wasn't welcome here. It is!

I'm wondering if Himel Bros. is actually making them, or outsourcing them from elsewhere?

 

[767fo]

Didn't mean to imply that your comment wasn't welcome here. It is!

I'm wondering if Himel Bros. is actually making them, or outsourcing them from elsewhere?

I have no idea. I can ask when I receive my Heron from him next week.