The Spanish Civil War

[PADDY]

Great photos Salv from NYC. (and that YOU Gents).

Fantastic photos (I have a particular interest in the uniforms - where is our good friend from Madrid who reenacts?).

The SCW is often forgotten about (outside of Spain of course) and it warms my heart to see you gents discuss such an important, historically pivotal and horrific conflict in a balanced, focused, civilised and enlightening way. Keep it Up! .

You are helping educate and hopefully generate and interest in folk who have either never heard of this conflict, or have known very little about it.

Good to see that you are throwing up some good 'reads' on the conflict as well, if any of us want to further read up on the subject.

!Muchas gracias mis amigos para todos aqui!

 

[Twitch]

I thought it was interesting that in the air Nationalist Joaquin Garcia Morato y Castano scored 40 kills and the next closest was a Nationalist, Julio Salvador Diaz Benzumea with 24.

 

[dr greg]

all in the numbers?

I recall reading that more people were executed in the SCW than died in combat, and a rough examination of the figures shows that Franco's forces had a workrate roughly 5 times that of their opponents, who were after all the elected government. It seems facile to reduce all that tragedy to bald figures, but the facts remain: one side was doing a lot more killing of the defenceless and/or innocent than the other, and stuff like that hangs around in the national consciousness, as Yugoslavia in the 90's amply illustrates.

 

[DOUGLAS]

Wow!! what a great history lesson. Thank you very much gentlemen.

 

[Zemke Fan]

I am going to close this thread temporarily

If ya'll agree to stay clear of current-day politics, Paddy and I might be convinvced to reopen it. -- ZF

 

[Zemke Fan]

Reopened

Folks,

I have reopened this thread. It is, for many, a fascinating topic of discussion. Any attempts to turn the discussion to current day Spanish politics will result in the offending posts being edited or obliterated. Everyone who posts here shall be on their best behavior. I am far too busy at work to have the time to issue demerits, fines, and/or spankings! Got it? (I want to hear: Sir, Yes sir!)

ZF

 

[Salv]

Thanks ZF - much appreciated. I hereby promise not to initiate any discussions on modern day Spanish politics, or politicians.

 

[Sierra Charriba]

Sir! Yes, Sir!
Señor, Sí Señor!
Of course, we have too much discussion here in Spain to continue in a Forum about the Golden Age...


Regards
Sierra Charriba

 

[jake431]

What are considered the "definitive texts" on this conflict in English?

My apologies if this has been covered elsewhere in the thread.

-Jake

 

[Salv]

What are considered the "definitive texts" on this conflict in English?

My apologies if this has been covered elsewhere in the thread.

-Jake

Probably Anthony Beevor's recently updated The Battle For Spain, and Hugh Thomas' The Spanish Civil War. I've never read the Thomas book, but from reviews it appears to be very strong on military detail, but weaker on the causes and the background to the war. Beevor isn't as concerned with the strictly military aspects of the war, but discusses at length the political and social background. Beevor also has more recently released archives - Soviet and German - on which to base his research. Either book would be a good place to start.

 

[Martinis at 8]

Probably Anthony Beevor's recently updated The Battle For Spain, and Hugh Thomas' The Spanish Civil War. I've never read the Thomas book, but from reviews it appears to be very strong on military detail, but weaker on the causes and the background to the war. Beevor isn't as concerned with the strictly military aspects of the war, but discusses at length the political and social background. Beevor also has more recently released archives - Soviet and German - on which to base his research. Either book would be a good place to start.

What would you consider some unbiased titles in Spanish? Sorry, but I can't get over my prejudice on anything about Spain or Latin America being written by Dutch, British (or other Anglophone) as being accurate. I do believe in the Leyenda Negra theory about British/Dutch.

M8

 

[Salv]

What would you consider some unbiased titles in Spanish? Sorry, but I can't get over my prejudice on anything about Spain or Latin America being written by Dutch, British (or other Anglophone) as being accurate. I do believe in the Leyenda Negra theory about British/Dutch.

M8

Sierra Charriba will have to answer this one, although he stated near the top of the thread that he recommended the revised edition of the Beevor book, and he also believes that "Curiously, the best books about our war have been written by Anglo-saxon authors."

 

[Sierra Charriba]

I believe that is better to forget the quest for the "definitive book" about SCW and to read several simply good books. There are very good Spanish authors writing books about SCW of great objectivity (Moradiellos, Casanova) but they do not have the attractiveness and fame of Hugh Thomas or Beevor. Personally, I do not like much Beevor. Its interpretation of the Spanish Civil War is often influenced by a anticomunism that, sometimes, harms its objectivity.He seems to admire much the idealism of trotskists and anarchists as opposed to the sinister handlings of the communists, forgetting that first they were also enemy of the democracy so and as we know it now...and then.When many anarchists reacted to defend the reformist democracy of republicans and socialists, it was too late.
I like much Gabriel Jackson and, very much, Paul Preston.Its last book about the foreign correspondents in Spain's war is extraordinary.

Regards
Sierra Charriba
P.S.: I send you my last SCW reenacting photo, dressed as "Soviet advisor in Guadalajara battle". Beevor don't like.

 

[anselmo1]

This is my favorite painting regarding the Spanish Civil War

 

[Martinis at 8]

I like the picture. Why would there be a guy in there dressed like a Moro?

M8

 

[anselmo1]

I like the picture. Why would there be a guy in there dressed like a Moro?

M8

He utilized Spanish Colonial troops against the Republican forces during the Civil War. Units of the Spanish Army of Africa, comprising Spanish Foreign Legion and Moroccan troops were utilitzed by the Nationalists. Please note how GM sent him Chevy trucks for his army:

 

[Sierra Charriba]

I can't praise your taste about Spanish Civil War paintings... Your favourite painting regarding the World War Two, is the Adolf Hitler official portrait?

Regards
Sierra Charriba

 

[cookie]

Moroccan Troops

I have always found the use of Moroccan troops by Franco to be an extraordinary historical twist - considering the Spanish Kings punted the Moros out of Spain.

But reading a recent history of the Alhambra I notice that the use of Moroccan troops happened a lot even under the Moors. In fact one lot that were brought over in the Middle Ages ended up taking over the place.

 

[anselmo1]

I can't praise your taste about Spanish Civil War paintings... Your favorite painting regarding the World War Two, is the Adolf Hitler official portrait?

Regards
Sierra Charriba

Well, everyone has their own opinion. I was a history major in college and did a multitude of papers on the Spanish Civil War. There was no way that I would put up a painting of the Communist backed Republicans in any way shape or form. Nor would I put up a painting of Stalin or Hitler. Your remark was very distasteful and uncalled for since this is about history and not politics of today. The one thing that did interest me a lot was the Soviet heavy equipment and arms that the USSR provided during the conflict.

You can say what you want about Franco, but he did keep Spain out of WWII which really irritated Hitler. In addition, it caused the Allies fits regarding the neutral Spanish ports were the Kriegsmarine refueled secretly.

Spanish Nationalist soldiers never forgot the aid that Germany and Italy provided and volunteered to form a division on their own, "The Blue". This division of volunteers were under the leadership of General Agust??n Mu?±oz Grandes to fight the Communists on the eastern front during WWII.

 

[Sierra Charriba]

Anselmo, you can look for "good side" of all dictators an, probably, you will find it anything fine in Franco, Hitler Mussolini, Stalin, Mao, Castro, Saddam!, etcc.. But they were DICTATORS. Franco killed and jailed thousands of spanish, during and after the war. He was a criminal. History said it, and I can say it because I'm 50 years old, I lived under Franco's regime and I know what I say.

One common mistake:Franco did keep Spain out of WWII which really irritated Hitler. False. Franco wanted enter in war with the Axis, but, as payment, ambitioned the french Morocco. Mussolini also wanted the french North Africa and Hitler promised him that the prize will be for Italy. This is the reason because Hitler didn't want Spain in war.

The "Divisi??n Azul", (the blue division) fighting the Communists on the eastern front ? Not, really. Fighting in the nazi side against the Soviet Union and their allies, USA and Great Britain. More than 25 million of soviet people died in the eastern front. All communists? Really you think, as Franco, that the war in the East was a "anticommunist crusade"?
Regards
Sierra Charriba