The Spanish Civil War

[Martinis at 8]

Yes, but dictators are really no different from kings, just less lineage.

 

[Fletch]

Please note how GM sent him Chevy trucks for his army:

I see trucks, I see they're Chevys, I don't see signs saying "This Truck Courtesy of General Motors, Official Carmaker of Nationalist Forces." Is this just something Everybody Knows?

 

[anselmo1]

Anselmo, you can look for "good side" of all dictators an, probably, you will find it anything fine in Franco, Hitler Mussolini, Stalin, Mao, Castro, Saddam!, etcc.. But they were DICTATORS. Franco killed and jailed thousands of Spanish, during and after the war. He was a criminal. History said it, and I can say it because I'm 50 years old, I lived under Franco's regime and I know what I say.

One common mistake:Franco did keep Spain out of WWII which really irritated Hitler. False. Franco wanted enter in war with the Axis, but, as payment, ambitioned the French Morocco. Mussolini also wanted the French North Africa and Hitler promised him that the prize will be for Italy. This is the reason because Hitler didn't want Spain in war.

You are absolutely wrong with the above statement. The reason Franco did not join in WWII was due to his close friend Admiral Canaris head of the Germany's Abwehr. Canaris was a secret agent for the allies and he counseled Franco on the allies behalf. Franco respected Canaris and knew that he was honest in his dealings. In addition, his country just went through three years of hard fighting and was trying to recover.

The "Division Azul", (the blue division) fighting the Communists on the eastern front ? Not, really. Fighting in the nazi side against the Soviet Union and their allies, USA and Great Britain. More than 25 million of soviet people died in the eastern front. All communists? Really you think, as Franco, that the war in the East was a "anticommunist crusade"?
Regards
Sierra Charriba

It was an anti-Communist crusade and it is outlined in Hitler's own book, Mein Kampf and followed by Franco in Spain. In addition, the Spanish Civil War was Republicans (Communists, Anarchists) vs Nationalists (Fascists, Falange, Roman Catholic Church, Aristocracy and Royalty). The Republicans were first to start the atrocities in 1936 by murdering Jose Antonio Primo de Rivera, the head of the Falange Espa?±ola. The volunteers of "Division Azul" were anti-Communist wanted to stop the "Reds" at all costs.

Hitler murdered millions but Stalin the Communist is always given a free pass. Murder is wrong in any way shape or form. He not only murdered his own people by execution but starved them to death as he did in the Ukraine in the 1930's. He purged by death 90% of the officer corps in the late 1930's. Franco might have had to jail communists and anarchists that tried to over throw his regime but Stalin killed at least 18 million to 20 million of his own people for no reason at all.

Fascists were wrong but so were the Communists and I think people all over the world realize this fact after the devastation caused by WW II.

 

[cookie]

Deaths under Communism

Those Stalin numbers are interesting. Most figures for the total loss of life under Communism is 55 million.

 

[Sierra Charriba]

REVISIONISM is try to kill the victims a second time...
But the History can't be changed

Sierra Charriba

 

[Salv]

It was an anti-Communist crusade and it is outlined in Hitler's own book, Mein Kampf and followed by Franco in Spain. In addition, the Spanish Civil War was Republicans (Communists, Anarchists) vs Nationalists (Fascists, Falange, Roman Catholic Church, Aristocracy and Royalty). The Republicans were first to start the atrocities in 1936 by murdering Jose Antonio Primo de Rivera, the head of the Falange Espa?±ola. The volunteers of "Division Azul" were anti-Communist wanted to stop the "Reds" at all costs.

Hitler murdered millions but Stalin the Communist is always given a free pass. Murder is wrong in any way shape or form. He not only murdered his own people by execution but starved them to death as he did in the Ukraine in the 1930's. He purged by death 90% of the officer corps in the late 1930's. Franco might have had to jail communists and anarchists that tried to over throw his regime but Stalin killed at least 18 million to 20 million of his own people for no reason at all.

Fascists were wrong but so were the Communists and I think people all over the world realize this fact after the devastation caused by WW II.

How many times do I have to repeat this? (Maybe I should write it in a large size in the hopes that people take notice):

The Spanish Communist Party (PCE) was a small minority in the Popular Front. Please note the results of the 1936 elections which I listed in the very first post in this thread:

Party - Seats in Cortes
CEDA - 101
Socialists - 88
Republican Left - 79
Republican Union - 34
Esquerra - 22
Centre Party - 21
Carlists - 15
Communists - 14
Monarchists - 13
Lliga - 12
Agrarians - 11
Radicals - 9
Basques - 5
Falangists - 0


To call the Spanish civil War an anti-Communist crusade is to completely misunderstand the scope of the Popular Front. Most of the members of the Popular Front had as little love for, and trust of, the Communists, as you do.

 

[dr greg]

The hard sell

I see trucks, I see they're Chevys, I don't see signs saying "This Truck Courtesy of General Motors, Official Carmaker of Nationalist Forces." Is this just something Everybody Knows?

maybe GM needed an ad like this one (not sure if I put this up before)

As to the 'anti-communist crusade' Franco rose up against a democratically elected government of which the Commmunists were a member of the coalition, the fierce battles that took place between the republicans later in the war as the communists TOOK CONTROL, (Stalin hated anarchists even more than social democrats) were testament to the fact that the republicans were in no way a communist force to begin with.
Massacres of innocent people were, as I've said before, far more prevalent on the Franco side than the other, but arguing over who started it is schoolyard-level analysis.

 

[anselmo1]

How many times do I have to repeat this? (Maybe I should write it in a large size in the hopes that people take notice):

The Spanish Communist Party (PCE) was a small minority in the Popular Front. Please note the results of the 1936 elections which I listed in the very first post in this thread:

Party - Seats in Cortes
CEDA - 101
Socialists - 88
Republican Left - 79
Republican Union - 34
Esquerra - 22
Centre Party - 21
Carlists - 15
Communists - 14
Monarchists - 13
Lliga - 12
Agrarians - 11
Radicals - 9
Basques - 5
Falangists - 0


To call the Spanish civil War an anti-Communist crusade is to completely misunderstand the scope of the Popular Front. Most of the members of the Popular Front had as little love for, and trust of, the Communists, as you do.

Why did Stalin support the Republicans with arms and equipment? To fight Fascism or to spread Communism by force? The elections in 1936 speak for themselves but the Communist influence increased as the war progressed.

The PCE (Partido Comunista de Espana) was founded in 1921. Due to the strength of the Socialist, Anarcho-Syndicalist and Marxist movements in Spain, the Spanish Communist Party was small; it was also highly efficient and enjoyed the support of Stalinist Russia. This was to prove highly significant as the Civil War progressed; as the other political parties declined in power the Communists were to exert more and more influence, especially in the Armed Forces.

The picture below are Nationalist tanks on parade celebrating their victory over the Republican and Communist defeat in 1939.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Why did Stalin support the Republicans with arms and equipment? To fight Fascism or to spread Communism by force?

Though this argument is becoming rather tedious, the above can come right back at you with Stalin replaced with Hitler/Mussolini, replace Republicans with Nationalists and reverse Fascism and Communism. You must be able to see this.

Though i abhor the Stalinist Soviet regime with all the spirit of my being, this is no reason to support/defend a Fascist regime ("yeah, Hitler/Mussolini/Franco were bad, but at least they were fighting Communism" is, to me, a foolish argument and one which could only occur with such temporal separation from these events/movements as we now enjoy).

Even if they (the Fascists) were fighting against the Soviets they represent one and the same thing: despotic desire to control a population for their own ends. Politics are incidental to the standard behaviour of all the dictatorships we are discussing in this thread. None of these groups are any better, or worse, than the others. A choice between Fascists and Soviet/Stalin-style communism is no fair choice at all. I'll take a healthy portion of neither, please.

If nothing else, this thread (and the various resources herein referred to) should teach anyone who's read it/them that this conflict - as with all others in my experience - cannot be boiled to glib sound bites like "crusade/battle against Communism" or "fight against Fascism".

bk

 

[Baron Kurtz]

As for the Franco portrait, a great piece of hagiograpic art. I love the attempt to link the just-ended SCW with the French revolution. A common motif in despot-art.

bk

 

[anselmo1]

As for the Franco portrait, a great piece of hagiograpic art. I love the attempt to link the just-ended SCW with the French revolution. A common motif in despot-art.

bk

Well, if you like that piece of art, you would like this one of the great Spanish Civil War hero.

 

[dr greg]

young people of today

I often think about the young people of the era from all over the world who went to Spain to fight and often die for the republic (and yes I know there were some on the other side but nowhere near as many). it's hard to imagine that kind of idealism in the west today, even allowing for the greenies who sit in trees for weeks at a time. No shortage of that sort of youthful zeal in Islamic societies though as the recent history of Afghanistan and now Iraq clearly shows. OK that has a religious basis and the motivations of the International Brigades were politically secular, but still, risking your life in a real sense for a principle is not something we see a lot of in MaciPod world.
What motivated the youth of the western democracies in the 1930's that isn't around today?
And I don't see this as a political topic, more a socio-cultural question.

 

[Sierra Charriba]

If you want to know what are real SCW "pieces of art", you would like some examples:

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Just to set the record straight i do not think the Franco painting #1 is any good. The word great i used was to describe its rightful place in the long line of hagiographic portaiture.

Note the total absence of modern weapons. "Forget what we did to you, and celebrate the Leader!!" Revisionism of a very high calibre.

bk

 

[anselmo1]

And here are some more:

 

[Sierra Charriba]

Hummmm...Too many ugly birds...
Look this serie:

Regards
Sierra Charriba

 

[anselmo1]

The winners were the Nationalists and Spain did not participate in WWII which was a major achievement in itself. Here are some more celebrating the victory.

 

[Sierra Charriba]

Yes, the bad guys won...but later they were defeated by the Soviet Union, the United States of America and the Great Britain. The survivors did not accept that they had lost, and then decided to punish the spanish people with almost forty years of dictatorship.

 

[anselmo1]

Since it was the Comintern that organized Republican and International Brigade forces, I don't blame General Franco in the least. The Catholic Church would have been the first victim by the Republicans if they had won the Spanish Civil War. As the Comintern was funded by the USSR to spread world Communism, Nationalist forces had to defend their way of life, church and country.

Well, the Republican backed Communists lost the war and Franco brought prosperity and freedom of religion to Spain until his death. Since Communists in his country were nothing more than terrorists, he had to treat that problem as a threat against the state.

 

[dr greg]

things have a cause

No doubt the Republicans would have taken the Church to task if they'd won, but it had nothing to do with "world communism", and everything to do with the behaviour of the clergy. Do you think there would have been a problem if they had been nice guys and the poor lived comfortably? Iberian Catholicism was a particularly venal branch of the faith, and you don't get revolution without repression. Let's get this in perspective here, the American Revolution started over the price of tea, things were a bit rougher in Spain.
http://content.cdlib.org/xtf/view?d...e2218&toc.depth=1&toc.id=d0e2193&brand=eschol
The struggle against the church was mainly led by Anarchists and began in the late 19thC: the Communists hated Anarchists, and were more interested in wresting control from them than fighting Franco, ergo, the bad guys won.