The Spanish Civil War

[Maguire]

Maguire,

you make a lot of interesting points, however, there are some facts I would like to point out, that you may not be aware of.

Post Franco, an attitude of "agree to disagree" was adopted that took a revisionist view on history. The idea was to make the transition from a TOTALITARIAN POLICE STATE to a DEMOCRACY easier to accept for Franco loyalists.

The fact of the matter is, there are disparate difference between the scale of atrocities committed by the two sides during the war.

For fair comparison between the factions I'd like to point out some statistical data:

From 1936-1939 55,000 people were executed by various Loyalist faction (primarily in 1936, and the majority of whom were active insurgents, members of previous dictatorships, or members of political parties that supported the Rebellion after the fact, I.E. Jose Antonio).

From 1936-1939 close to 200,000 non-combatants or surrendered soldiers were executed at the hands of the Insurgents. These figures do not include civilians who died from air raids. Mass political executions continued after the civil war ended in 1939, not ceasing until about 1945.

These number come from Antony Beevor's history of the conflict The Spanish Civil War.

They are figures confirmed by the Franco regime (so, it's safe to assume they try to make themselves look good and the Republicans bad!)

I appreciate your point. I'd prefer to address this argument in private, hwoever. - I actually own the book in question and after i finish this Alexander biography i will begin it.

 

[carebear]

Beevor's book is excellent.

 

[SGT Rocket]

Anarchist

Ok, I have a question that is a little off topic, fftopic:

My idea of an anarchist is one who doesn't want any form of government at all. Why were some voted into the republican government at the beginning of the SCW?

Thanks!

 

[Maguire]

Ok, I have a question that is a little off topic, fftopic:

My idea of an anarchist is one who doesn't want any form of government at all. Why were some voted into the republican government at the beginning of the SCW?

Thanks!

Anarchist in the early 20th century and late 19th was a catch all term the way "terrorist" may be today. Anarchists proper had particular ideology shaped by the likes of Bakunin or say Nestor Mahkno and the like, the same way there are dozens of offshoots of communism and socialism that are at times completely at odds with each other. For example, I've seen some refer to Gavrilo Princip as an "Anarchist" at the time of the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand when he was infact a run of the mill nationalist. The bomb throwing "propaganda of the deed" anarchists are something somewhat different from Spain's organized anarchist movement, I'd say. Most of the ones responsible for the kind of things we associate with anarchy were usually loners or at least, unaffiliated with official organizations who usually condoned the events after the fact. Another factor is the whole evolution vs. revolution which marxists debated until the bolsheviks (who favored the latter, along with the vanguard idea) became dominant after the Russian revolution. Some anarchists saw anarchy as a gradual, natural evolution rather than a goal to be achieved by force and were more prone to working "within" the system.

the Anarchists had political parties or factions, of course. I personally understand your seeing the irony /contradiction here, but back then I suppose it seemed like the only viable way to advance their cause outside of violent revolution. Spain especially was loaded with dozens of different ideological and nationalistic persuasions, anarchy or some form of anarchy (anarcho syndicalism, for example) are just scraping the surface. I hope that helps, its really impossible to get into the details of either the situation in Spain or the meat and substance of any of the ideological strains in a paragraph or two, I suggest checking out wikipedia for a brief summary or if you are truely interested checking out the works of actual anarchist thinkers and the like.

 

[SGT Rocket]

Anarchist

Great explanation!

Anarchists factions working within the government for change sounds like a good and civil idea. Much better to work non-violently for change than to shoot or blow-up your fellow citizens.

The anarchists, I assume, would work for a smaller and smaller government while they were in the Spanish Parliament. I'm guessing they would be the Libertarians of their time?

This thread has been so amazing. I'm gong to search Amazon for some good books on the SCW.

 

[Alexi]

if you view politics as a horse shoe, anarchism (Anarcho-syndicalism) is on the left and libertarianism on the right. So close, yet never touching.

 

[Fletch]

if you view politics as a horse shoe, anarchism (Anarcho-syndicalism) is on the left and libertarianism on the right. So close, yet never touching.

Where does that leave anarcho-dandyism?

Ans: Probably nursing a cold coffee in the Automat after his date for the evening threw him over for a Stalinist apparatchik.

 

[Torpedo]

Where does that leave anarcho-dandyism?

Ans: Probably nursing a cold coffee in the Automat after his date for the evening threw him over for a Stalinist apparatchik.

Wow! That 'site is exceedingly funny. Have you actually read any of those magazines?

 

[SGT Rocket]

SCW

Just thought I would bump this most interesting topic.

Does anyone have more images of the uniforms of either side? Lets see those pictures.

 

[Orlan]

Great explanation!

Anarchists factions working within the government for change sounds like a good and civil idea. Much better to work non-violently for change than to shoot or blow-up your fellow citizens.

The anarchists, I assume, would work for a smaller and smaller government while they were in the Spanish Parliament. I'm guessing they would be the Libertarians of their time?

This thread has been so amazing. I'm gong to search Amazon for some good books on the SCW.

I recommend you this book " LA GUERRA CIVIL ESPAÑOLA dia a dia 1936_1939". But I don't know if it is in English.

 

[Cobblers]

The Anarcho-Syndicalist Union the CNT was one of the largest trade unions in Spain prior to the Civil war, far from being angry bomb throwers they organised workforces on a grand scale and were largely responsible for the dramatic and those enlightened amongst us would hopefully say positive changes in Catalonia pre-1937.

As the Republican gvmnt of the time comprised of numerous leftist groups the CNT had no choice but use the political system to retain influence against the rise of the UGT (Communists).

And then there was also the FAI, Federation of Iberian Anarchists, Durutti and Barcelona 1937.

Sadly the popular face of anarchism is the assassin, bomb throwing lunatic when in reality the Unionised anarchist movement has done far more for the 'people' and continues to do so on, albeit, a lesser scale.

I guess that's the power of the media for you.

 

[Cobblers]

Libertarianism is anarchism, sadly it's just been hijacked by a bunch of right wing conservative nutters and bandied about as something new.

Google Libertarian Communism ie Anarchism.

 

[carebear]

Libertarianism is anarchism, sadly it's just been hijacked by a bunch of right wing conservative nutters and bandied about as something new.

Google Libertarian Communism ie Anarchism.

Anarchists didn't coin the word, they adopted it from the same source modern Libertarians did.

You can't hijack the concept of "free will", the original meaning, and a group of individuals who self-identify as holding the 18th century Enlightenment ideals of classical liberalism (life, liberty, property) vice statism and collectivism can hardly be called late-comers to the ideological party.

To try to claim that pro-private property libertarians are hijackers and "conservative nutters" is to utterly misunderstand and misstate their philosophy and its history in Western thought.

 

[PADDY]

LA GUERRA CIVIL ESPAÑOLA

This thread on LA GUERRA CIVIL ESPAÑOLA (Spanish Civil War) is one of the most interesting on the forum (in my humble opinion).

Thanks for keeping it related to the SCW and spurring the interest of other readers (who might not have known much about it initially) to want to find out more about it. Keep it topic related Gents

I noticed recently (in the last week or so) that there is talk about exhuming a mass grave near Granada in Andalucia (the most beautiful hills and mountains, if you like your walking and cycling..etc).

 

[Stearmen]

Air War

[/IMG]

[/IMG] Is any one interested in the air war over Spain? When I was a teenager in the 70s, I saw a book Air Enthusiast, and on the cover was an Art Deco painting of a Polikarpov I-16. Ever since I have been a real enthusiast on the air war. I also found a copy of the book Some Still Live, by Frank G. Tinker. He was Americas top ace of the war with 8 kills, and the first American to shoot down a Bf-109! He also was the only American to ever command a Russian Squadron. Like many of the other pilots, he was not a Communist, he went to prove himself in combat. He did come away with a deep hatred of Fascism! Sadly, he committed suicide after the Republican loss. It is interesting how different nations took away vastly different lessons from the war and applied them to WWII. Russia and Italy stepped up biplane production. Germany thought short range infantry support was the way to go. Both were wrong in the long run! What do the rest of you think? By the way, didn't win the lottery again tonite, so no I-16 in my future!

 

[Alexi]

Anarchists didn't coin the word, they adopted it from the same source modern Libertarians did.

You can't hijack the concept of "free will", the original meaning, and a group of individuals who self-identify as holding the 18th century Enlightenment ideals of classical liberalism (life, liberty, property) vice statism and collectivism can hardly be called late-comers to the ideological party.

To try to claim that pro-private property libertarians are hijackers and "conservative nutters" is to utterly misunderstand and misstate their philosophy and its history in Western thought.

from what i remember anarchist kinda did coin the term, or at least it was coined to define them. It only dates from the late 18th century.

 

[STW]

from what i remember anarchist kinda did coin the term, or at least it was coined to define them. It only dates from the late 18th century.

But outside of party affiliation usage, couldn't you say the term is much older? Great contributions to the political definition of anarchist here, so I only want to add that in vintage definition anarchism and democracy are rough synonyms. Plato wasn't fond of democracy/anarchism which he saw as leveling social heirarchy by giving each citizen an equal status with every other citizen. Since the late 18th C. (when any anti-monarchist democratic or republican movement was seen as anarchic by definition), the idea of each citizen having equal status seems a lot less threatening, and has become a widespread ideal. In the meantime, the term anarchist has developed the connotation that SlyGI was asking about. The definition of anarchist as destroyer or terrorist who hates any semblance of order or structure is still a handy way for those in power to characterize their opposition. But those who chose the term anarchist for their parties were ususally using the term to suggest some kind of radical democracy. This is why they were opposed so fiercely by communists because Leninist Democratic Centralism is highly heriarchical and not particularly democratic. Sorry if anyone feels that's an unfair characterization of Democratic Centralism--just my point of view.

Outside any meeting of Leninist parties back then, whether they branched toward Trotskyism or Stalinism, you'd see a group of anarchists protesting for leftist democracy.

 

[MisterCairo]

Anarchists didn't coin the word, they adopted it from the same source modern Libertarians did.

You can't hijack the concept of "free will", the original meaning, and a group of individuals who self-identify as holding the 18th century Enlightenment ideals of classical liberalism (life, liberty, property) vice statism and collectivism can hardly be called late-comers to the ideological party.

To try to claim that pro-private property libertarians are hijackers and "conservative nutters" is to utterly misunderstand and misstate their philosophy and its history in Western thought.

fftopic: :eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap

 

[Guttersnipe]

...It is interesting how different nations took away vastly different lessons from the war and applied them to WWII. Russia and Italy stepped up biplane production. Germany thought short range infantry support was the way to go. Both were wrong in the long run! What do the rest of you think? By the way, didn't win the lottery again tonite, so no I-16 in my future!

Ultimately the interventionist armies actually took away very little from their experiences is Spain.

The Italian Army failed to realize its C/C structures were antiquated, brittle and unprofessional. German panzer divisions were in Poland and France were not beefed up with more integral infantry formations. And most of the Red Army officers sent to Spain were purged upon return to the Soviet Union...

 

[Hazela]

Paddy-Raoul Larmour was my dad & certainly did not go to the Spanish Civil War!Hazel

I knew little about the 'ins & outs' of the Spanish Civil War. My French teacher at school, Raoul Larmour, went to fight for the Republican side in Spain with an Irish Battalion when he was a young idealistic man. But I never heard him mutter one word about that time.

Thanks for educating me on this guys. I love Spain/Espana and the people and the culture there, but this will allow me to look at it in a different light at times.

Raoul Larmour was my dad & he certainly didn't go to the SCW....but it made a good story, didn't it? Hazel Larmour!!!!!