The School of Hard Knox

[Hurricane Jack]

Hi,

I was hoping some of you "Old Hats" might be able to help me identify and date this wonderful Knox estate sale find. Please don't ask how much it cost. I hope to be a respected member of Fedora Lounge and jealousy and hatred won't help my reputation. lol

First, does anybody recognize the style? I am seeing similar modern called "low top hats" and an older one called a "Cahill" The differerence with the Cahill is this has a flat brim ... the Cahill is rolled.

Next construction. The condition of the fur is perfect. The only condition problem is with the grosgrain edge ribbon as you can see in the photos.

Can anyone tell me how this hat is constructed. It is not felt. It feels like a hard board of some kind covered with fur. The underside of the brim and crown are covered with fabric. It feels very sturdy and stiff all around. Can I assume given it's apparent age and quality that the fur is beaver?

Would you recommend that I repair the damaged ribbon edge or leave it be?

Lastly, age. This is where I really hope for some expert help. My sense is telling me 19th Century ... but that is only a guess. When was this style popular?

I picked it up as a possible steampunk style ... but ... my spider senses are saying it doesn't deserve to have pipes and watch parts stuck to it. lol

Thanks in advance.

Jerry View attachment 129394 View attachment 129395 View attachment 129396 View attachment 129397 View attachment 129398 View attachment 129399 View attachment 129400

Looks like a Victorian woman's Top Hat or riding hat, 1850's - 1880's.

 

[AbbaDatDeHat]

Front to back = 8 1/4
Side to side = 6 1/2
Crown height = 4 1/4
Brim = 2 3/4

BTW I passed on two other Tophats. One was a silk foldable opera hat. It had some lining and other issues but was in generally very good condition for $60. The other was also in very good shape but was very small. I saw them at an estate sale for an old judge. He also had some military hats -- officer's hats, montana peaks, and campaign hats. I'm wondering now if I should go back and get them.

Whatever it is it’s pretty cool Jerry!!

Interesting pullout sweat/liner. I got pretty excited at this one. Here’s a pic (for reference) of the crest with pretty good detail only kinda inverse. The beaver (i believe) that Knox did is pretty impressive stuff to look at. These kind of hats amaze me.
Thanks for sharing.
And but of course you should go back, but of course!
B

 

[Jerry Probst]

Looks like a Victorian woman's Top Hat or riding hat, 1850's - 1880's.

 

[Jerry Probst]

Thanks Jack,

To narrow down the dates a little. I checked on Eastman Bros and Bancroft in Portland, ME. They were a very important Dry Goods / Department Store established in 1865 and closing during the depression.

A ladies Riding Hat is an interesting observation. It has that feel. The top of the crown is slightly wider than the bottom giving it a slight outward curve. The brim however is dead flat similar to men's stove pipe hats. A quick check of ladies riding hats turns up hats with more curve and profile in the brim and curled edges. But, the crown height matches the ladies hats.

The batting inside the lining is definitely for insulation. It is probably what held the satin together all these years.

Regarding condition: As I said the edge ribbon is split in most places. Looking for advice here. My sense is that making repairs or replacing ribbons is generally acceptable on vintage hats, because of sweat and wear. In this case, is it ok to go ahead and get the edge ribbon replaced or should I leave it as is (see photo above). I can get it professionally replaced and a new ribbon will definitely restore it's original appearance.

 

[Frunobulax]

It’s a lady’s sailor hat.....early 1900’s........not rare at all

I was going to say Coachman's hat, but I defer to Vic.


Sent directly from my mind to yours.

 

[Jerry Probst]

Whatever it is it’s pretty cool Jerry!! View attachment 129422 View attachment 129423 View attachment 129424 Interesting pullout sweat/liner. I got pretty excited at this one. Here’s a pic (for reference) of the crest with pretty good detail only kinda inverse. The beaver (i believe) that Knox did is pretty impressive stuff to look at. These kind of hats amaze me.
Thanks for sharing.
And but of course you should go back, but of course!
B

Thank you,

Those are some amazing hats!

I bought this hat with the intention of reselling it. My original thought was for the steampunk crowd, but it appears to have more value just as is ... without the goofy clock parts. lol

If I were to put it up for auction would it be better to repair the edge ribbon or leave it be as I found it.

any thoughts?

 

[Hurricane Jack]

The batting inside the lining is definitely for insulation.

That type of liner was common in women's hats so as not to crush their hair.

 

[AbbaDatDeHat]

Thank you,

Those are some amazing hats!

I bought this hat with the intention of reselling it. My original thought was for the steampunk crowd, but it appears to have more value just as is ... without the goofy clock parts. lol

If I were to put it up for auction would it be better to repair the edge ribbon or leave it be as I found it.

any thoughts?

I don’t know. I’ve never sold a hat. Others might chime in on the resale stuff. I just think it’s pretty neat. It would be interesting to see what else might come from your estate sale. Good luck.
B

 

[Jerry Probst]

I

That type of liner was common in women's hats so as not to crush their hair.

I also defer. It's a rather unusual hat. The flat brim suggested it might be from the antebellum period, but the store where it was sold was established in 1865. It has that unusual triple tiered ribbon and that very cool satin liner. But the more I look at it, the more I agree it's a ladie's hat.

It's as sturdy as a tank. and is in great shape. I'm really happy I found it, but regret passing up the other two top hats at the sale.

Now, I need to figure out whether to repair the ribbon edge. I live near the Hatco factory in Garland, Texas. They will do factory repairs on any of their brands. Knox is a Hatco brand, but I would have to think one this old would be stretching their policy. lol. But it's such a simple repair, I don't think it would be a problem.

I'm just wondering if replacing the ribbon would enhance or hurt the value of the hat to a collector.

Any thoughts?

 

[Jerry Probst]

I don’t know. I’ve never sold a hat. Others might chime in on the resale stuff. I just think it’s pretty neat. It would be interesting to see what else might come from your estate sale. Good luck.
B

Thanks,
I went back to the sale and unfortunately another hat person got there before me. Two top hats, a wood block and flange, and an unheated metal hat stretcher were all gone. There was a nice wooden hat stretcher still there shortly before they closed the sale for the day. I plan to go back early in the morning and pick it up. If I get it, I'll post a photo.

 

[alanfgag]

I

Now, I need to figure out whether to repair the ribbon edge. I live near the Hatco factory in Garland, Texas. They will do factory repairs on any of their brands. Knox is a Hatco brand, but I would have to think one this old would be stretching their policy. lol. But it's such a simple repair, I don't think it would be a problem.

I'm just wondering if replacing the ribbon would enhance or hurt the value of the hat to a collector.

Any thoughts?

Yes... quite a stretch for Hatco. Apparently, per this Etsy shop, Patey's restores old silk plush hats. Or perhaps a fun project to try yourself.

 

[Jerry Probst]

Yes... quite a stretch for Hatco.

Quite a stretch, but possible. I have had them replace sweatbands on some vintage Resistol fedoras, and they had no problems at all. Knox is their brand, so they might just go for it. I'm sure the folks in the factory would enjoy the novelty of the hat.

 

[Hurricane Jack]

I


I also defer. It's a rather unusual hat. The flat brim suggested it might be from the antebellum period, but the store where it was sold was established in 1865. It has that unusual triple tiered ribbon and that very cool satin liner. But the more I look at it, the more I agree it's a ladie's hat.

It's as sturdy as a tank. and is in great shape. I'm really happy I found it, but regret passing up the other two top hats at the sale.

Now, I need to figure out whether to repair the ribbon edge. I live near the Hatco factory in Garland, Texas. They will do factory repairs on any of their brands. Knox is a Hatco brand, but I would have to think one this old would be stretching their policy. lol. But it's such a simple repair, I don't think it would be a problem.

I'm just wondering if replacing the ribbon would enhance or hurt the value of the hat to a collector.

Any thoughts?

As Fruno pointed out they're still fairly common & not rare. Add to that a limited demand & limited market today. Not sure it's worth putting much money into it other than for your own learning & enjoyment.

Depending on price of course, the metal hat sizer would have been the treasure of the day.

 

[Jerry Probst]

As Fruno pointed out they're still fairly common & not rare. Add to that a limited demand & limited market today. Not sure it's worth putting much money into it other than for your own learning & enjoyment.

Depending on price of course, the metal hat sizer would have been the treasure of the day.

The metal stretcher was $220 but was unheated. I thought about it, but the metal dome was pretty severely bashed and dented so I decided to pass. The wooden one, however, is nice and smooth for $190. I plan to be camped out in the morning and get a $50 discount, if it's still there.

 

[Hurricane Jack]

The metal stretcher was $220 but was unheated. I thought about it, but the metal dome was pretty severely bashed and dented so I decided to pass. The wooden one, however, is nice and smooth for $190. I plan to be camped out in the morning and get a $50 discount, if it's still there.

You don't want to use a heater anyway. I have never even plugged mine in. I use it to go back to an open crown & remove ghost crease lines, & sizing a hat. Mine still has an old cloth electrical cord that I have never even bothered to replace.

 

[Jerry Probst]

You don't want to use a heater anyway. I have never even plugged mine in. I use it to go back to an open crown & remove ghost crease lines, & sizing a hat. Mine still has an old cloth electrical cord that I have never even bothered to replace.

Those old cloth cords will burn your house down.

 

[Jerry Probst]

I don’t know. I’ve never sold a hat. Others might chime in on the resale stuff. I just think it’s pretty neat. It would be interesting to see what else might come from your estate sale. Good luck.
B

I returned to the estate sale for a second round.

Luckily the wooden hat stretcher was still there. Better still,

I got 25% off yesterday's price. I have to agree. This was the real treasure.

 

[Tukwila]

Have you guys seen a Knox edge treatment that looks like their Custom Edge on top, but has stitching that shows on the bottom like an underwelt? No stitching shows at all on the top and appears just like the Cavanagh edge.

This is on a very lightweight felt on my daughter's Tom n Jerry with the embroidered liner.

 

[alanfgag]

I returned to the estate sale for a second round.

Luckily the wooden hat stretcher was still there. Better still, View attachment 129514 I got 25% off yesterday's price. I have to agree. This was the real treasure.

Glad you were able to get it. As others have said, these come up for sale on eBay quite regularly in a range of condition. Be sure to post yours on this thread when you have time.

 

[Hurricane Jack]

I returned to the estate sale for a second round.

Luckily the wooden hat stretcher was still there. Better still, View attachment 129514 I got 25% off yesterday's price. I have to agree. This was the real treasure.

Glad you got it Jerry! The metal one would have been worth having too.