The Lost Art of Manliness

[PrettySquareGal]

Fine You may be right Miss Neecerie.


But Tussie-Mussies or not Tussie-Mussies the whole thing just sounds a little too S.N.A.G for my liking.

That's my honest and personal opinion.[huh]

When my husband was still in the Marine Corps he often would bring me a yellow rose because he knew I loved them. What is the meaning of a yellow rose? Heck if I know. (This from someone who has Victorian era books on the language of flowers!) I think it's manly to be tuned into what a lady likes whether she "should" or "shouldn't" (for example, if I liked velvet art I'm sure he would have bought me a new poster weekly.)

I think it's impossible to write a guide on how to be manly, but rather what is written are guidelines on how to do certain things that certain segments of society define as manly.

 

[Dr Doran]

the man as an absent provider (strictly a construct of the industrial revolutiion) .

Yep.

Every guy I know who has kids has stepped up to the plate and become a great father provider, nurturer, and what i would call a man. Women sometimes complain, but that is because they want to get married and have kids. Not men's problem..

You are lucky, then, because I know an immense number of males who have NOT stepped up. In fact, it is a huge problem in this nation alone (among some groups more than others!). The notion that a man should invest time, energy, money, affection, resources into his offspring is not automatic (unfortunately) and requires cultural persuasion, in the form of cultural constructions like "marriage" and "active fatherhood" to make it work. Aside from this nation, many cultures exist in which the father has no particular role in the raising of his children: in fact, they are not really even considered his. The brothers of the children's mother perform guidance roles and perform parental investing roles. This style does not work outside of a close, organic village context at all and (so far) is completely unsuited to a modern technological society. As far as I can see.

I am 43 and still single and enjoying myself completely. i will marry and have kids someday, but on my own time..

No rush! My father was 48 when I was born.

As for something particularly meaningful about a style of dress, a suit, a couple kissing in vintage clothing, meh. I don't think it has anything to do with true manliness. 1000 years ago, men who would snort at the men of the golden era dressed in tights and velvet. it doesn't mean a thing.

We like suits and hats, end of story. there is nothing special or particularly manly about it. But they are cool.
.

Maybe they don't intrinsically mean a thing, but they have come to mean something over the twentieth century. They have picked up a set of associations that resonates in the hearts of many women and men. This explains my attachment to them.

 

[LaMedicine]

Kinda off topic but

Just a few random thoughts.

1) There's a definite difference between the human male and female as in, the former has a Y chromosome while the female has only X, with the exception of some rare cases. This will make a difference not only on biological structure, but on some biological behavior as well, which can have sociological consequenses.
2) While in general, there is no age limit (or, the limit comes very late in life) for reproduction for men, there is a very clear biological age limit for women where reproduction is concerned (unless modern day medicine steps in). This can cause a difference in how men and women regard their life stages where childbearing and raising children are concerned. While is it relatively easy for men to have their first child at 48, it is not as easy for women. In fact, some would have already lost the ability by that age. Plus, the older the women get, the greater the chance of bearing genetically challenged offsprings, due to the aging of the oocyte.

So, in the medical professional's eye, there is developing a greater divide between when a person is biologically/medically fit for parenthood and when a person is sociologically/economically/mentally fit for parenthood.

 

[Carlisle Blues]

^^^
In American law there is a concept known as "The Fertile Octogenarian"...stems from English Common law

 

[Widebrim]

Putting women on a pedestal is seeing them as an object, nnot a person.

Very true, and very potentially damaging. (Some religious groups are guility of this as pertains to their view of womanhood, theology, and worship).

 

[Paisley]

Manly men like flowers!

Hmmm, I was under the impression that wherever a plant grew that it was not supposed to was a weed. It being a flower was irrelevant.

At my house, flowers are allowed everywhere but in the lawn. The problem is weeds growing among the flowers.

My front yard is full of flowers and sometimes mail carriers whine about having to walk through the "weeds." Not very manly, especially since I go along the same short path every day without a problem.

 

[Paisley]

^^^
In American law there is a concept known as "The Fertile Octogenarian"...stems from English Common law

That's just wrong.

 

[Widebrim]

As for something particularly meaningful about a style of dress, a suit, a couple kissing in vintage clothing, meh. I don't think it has anything to do with true manliness. 1000 years ago, men who would snort at the men of the golden era dressed in tights and velvet. it doesn't mean a thing.

Well, just having watched the first half of "Murder, My Sweet" again, and looking at the '40s clothing that accentuates Ann Shirley's and (especially) Claire Trevor's curves, ah, I think I disagree with the above...lol

 

[Lokar]

I was a fan of the Art of Manliness website when it first started - it was largely just dress and grooming (and it lead me to the Fedora Lounge). I wasn't particularly interested in the "Manliness" part of it, more the "Old fashioned gentleman" part. Then I visited the forums, and was .. afraid. Then the website itself changed, and I stopped frequenting it. There were a few tips, but the Fedora Lounge is not only more useful and informative, but the people and attitude are what I want in a website.

 

[get_atomized]

I am not addressing manners I am speaking to views towards woman and how those views are foisted upon the reader, in some cases vulnerable, impressionable readers. That has been the theme throughout my posts here.

Carlisle Blues, I'm in feminist studies full-time at a university here in Toronto and I have to say after reading through this thread I am very pleased to see your astute critical analysis of this website! I think you are spot-on with all of the aspects of the site that you find problematic. :eusa_clap

 

[Foofoogal]

Originally Posted by reetpleat
Putting women on a pedestal is seeing them as an object, nnot a person.

talk about overkill. I am speaking of cherishing a woman and deeply loving her. I cannot imagine anyone seeing this badly.
Married nearly 35 years and we both adore each other and put each other on a pedestal is what I was trying to imply. :eusa_doh:
Putting the union above selfishness and each other before self.
http://sandysfancypants.blogspot.com

no wonder we are in the mess we are in and divorces so high.
Find it so funny this is a site about vintage and vintage values are laughed at here and traditional roles blasted. oyvey.

 

[Carlisle Blues]

That's just wrong.

Fertile Octogenarian

n. The notion that any male or female regardless of their age, infirmity or physical deficiency, is capable of having a child. For instance, a child would have to wait until their mother and father have deceased so that they could receive a property title since he/she may still be able to acquire a sibling. This unnecessarily tied up the property and most states have passed laws to resolve this issue.

 

[reetpleat]

talk about overkill. I am speaking of cherishing a woman and deeply loving her. I cannot imagine anyone seeing this badly.
Married nearly 35 years and we both adore each other and put each other on a pedestal is what I was trying to imply. :eusa_doh:
Putting the union above selfishness and each other before self.
http://sandysfancypants.blogspot.com

no wonder we are in the mess we are in and divorces so high.
Find it so funny this is a site about vintage and vintage values are laughed at here and traditional roles blasted. oyvey.

If that is your point, fair enough. But in common parlance, putting women on a pedestal is a commonly used term for men seeing women as some special thing that is unobtainable, more than a regular person, or incapablle of taking care of herself.

While I do not think it has any benefit to women, I am convinced it has no benefit to men. And I don't mean in a selfish way. I mean, men who do this are pretty unsuccessful with women, and relationships.

Any woman worth being in a relationship wiith wants to be treated like a human being, loved and cherished. Not put on a pedestal in the common usage of that term.

 

[Foofoogal]

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=42922

I find it fascinating that this thread (Lost Art of Manliness) was moved to the OB but the one on Rosie was not.
Not only that but everyone could discuss the Lost Art of Manliness one but the Rosie only women could discuss.
Speaks volumes of the direction FL seems to be going and probably our society. Hopefully not.

 

[Geesie]

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=42922

I find it fascinating that this thread (Lost Art of Manliness) was moved to the OB but the one on Rosie was not.
Not only that but everyone could discuss the Lost Art of Manliness one but the Rosie only women could discuss.
Speaks volumes of the direction FL seems to be going and probably our society. Hopefully not.

Given the vintage nature of things involved, I think it speaks volumes of where our society has been.

 

[Edward]

Personally I would say yes to the first question: the evidence seems overwhelming to me. And no to the second. In this case, we must ask what the difference actually is, how we can really characterize it. I distrust the people who insist that males must act like big, dumb idiots. But -- no offense to Edward: I always like his posts -- I also distrust the people who think that a somewhat martial ideal of male strength must be ridiculed and disposed of altogether. Unless I misunderstand this position: if so, I am willing to be corrected.

Oh, I don't advocate throwing 'traditional man' out entirely; of course there are some values there which are worthy of retaining. Celebration of the more brutish, boorish side of "what it is to be a man", which I do all too often see, is something I believe should be rejected out of hand.

And for the record, to deal with the dichotomy of manliness vs. nonmanliness, let me say that I don't think being unmanly means being feminine necessarily: it means being boyish, it means refusing to grow up. It means avoiding responsibility and living in a boyish world.

Yes, this is it. I'm all for contemporary notions that life does not stop at forty, that those of us whose life does not go down the path of marriage, 2.4 kids and house in the suburbs by 35 are not somehow 'left behind', 'unmanly', or whatever. However, this modern cult of youth which promotes attempting to remain twenty forever is something else entirely.


With regards to the movement of this thrwad and not the rosie one (which I have now read - interesting, too, I missed it before), it seems to me that such a judgement call has been made precisely because while there is no other appropriate place for this thread, Rosie sits neatly in one of the areas of the site dedicated to the ladies. Particularly, I shouls imagine that the mods who made the decision to leave it there are mindful of the fact that a significantly high proportion of female FL members rarely,if ever, venture outside of the two or three dedicated rooms for the ladies.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Oh, I don't advocate throwing 'traditional man' out entirely; of course there are some values there which are worthy of retaining. Celebration of the more brutish, boorish side of "what it is to be a man", which I do all too often see, is something I believe should be rejected out of hand.

Well said. The beer-swilling, fist-pumping, troglodyte idiot contemporary image of what a "man" is is offensive, stupid, and dangerous, but that doesn't mean the image of being a shark-wrestling, lion-shooting, scotch-swilling carouser is the natural alternative. The manliest man I ever knew never touched a rifle in his life and went to bed every night at 10.

With regards to the movement of this thrwad and not the rosie one (which I have now read - interesting, too, I missed it before), it seems to me that such a judgement call has been made precisely because while there is no other appropriate place for this thread, Rosie sits neatly in one of the areas of the site dedicated to the ladies. Particularly, I shouls imagine that the mods who made the decision to leave it there are mindful of the fact that a significantly high proportion of female FL members rarely,if ever, venture outside of the two or three dedicated rooms for the ladies.

Correct.

 

[The Lonely Navigator]

Carlisle Blues: "Please we all have challenges in life some we overcome some we succumb to. There is the strength: the commitment to see things through no matter what . To triumph over our own doubts; doubts about self or the situation, to have the equanimity and faith that what was placed in my path is worth fighting for whether is be my health, a relationship or the rights of another. And in the end if we fail to overcome to resiliency to bounce back not to quit. There are always solutions."

First of all - I have enjoyed reading your many replies in this thread and agree whole heartedly to the above.

I could say that my biggest challenge was living alone (still am) with Fibromyalgia, Sciatica, and CFS - and somehow managing to take care of things and in the meantime find better ways to help my health - which I did - I have not been on painkillers or anti-depressants since 2004-05 and my dr., in 2007, said that I am now Fibromyalgia free (nor do I have the Sciatica anymore).

It is more than wonderful to have read your uplifting message Carlisle Blues. Even now as I deal with CFS still - I am still looking to take care of it as much as possible.

I have never had a positive male role model in my life - and essentially never had a 'family' as it is commonly known. I've had people care for me, but in essence, I was pretty much on my own with many things - and it was nice to meet the occasional person who was supportive of me along that time in my path.

 

[Son_of_Atropos]

This quote sums up the discussion for me.

Helen: "You're a good-looking boy: you've big, broad shoulders. But he's a man. And it takes more than big, broad shoulders to make a man."

 

[vintage68]

Carlisle Blues:

First of all - I have enjoyed reading your many replies in this thread and agree whole heartedly to the above.

I could say that my biggest challenge was living alone (still am) with Fibromyalgia, Sciatica, and CFS - and somehow managing to take care of things and in the meantime find better ways to help my health - which I did - I have not been on painkillers or anti-depressants since 2004-05 and my dr., in 2007, said that I am now Fibromyalgia free (nor do I have the Sciatica anymore).

It is more than wonderful to have read your uplifting message Carlisle Blues. Even now as I deal with CFS still - I am still looking to take care of it as much as possible.

I have never had a positive male role model in my life - and essentially never had a 'family' as it is commonly known. I've had people care for me, but in essence, I was pretty much on my own with many things - and it was nice to meet the occasional person who was supportive of me along that time in my path.

Thanks for the thoughtful and inspiring post.

Just curious, do you own the book, or have you checked it out? The reason I ask is that I too did not have a father/male role model in the house when I was growing up. Even though I'm full grown man now, I still enjoy books such as the one under discussion for little aphorisms, quotes, etc. Not "rules" to live by per se, just interesting food for thought IMHO.