The Holmes Fedora

[M6Classic]

Good Lord This grows even more byzantine than discussions of Indiana Jones hats. Not that it matters in respect to world peace and curing dread diseases, but is there some expert on the list who can summarize what we do and do not know about Robert Downey's beater hat from Sherlock Holmes?

Buzz

 

[jimmy the lid]

Didn't Jimmy the Lid get a hat off ebay that was once a Homburg but had a flattened out brim?

Yes (although I returned it) -- here's the auction photo:

Cheers,
JtL

 

[avedwards]

Yes (although I returned it) -- here's the auction photo:

Cheers,
JtL

That makes the homburg argument look more plausible again. That looks as if a bit of steam could turn it into Downey's hat. If Lock and Co are telling the truth it could be their homburg then.

 

[M6Classic]

That makes the homburg argument look more plausible again. That looks as if a bit of steam could turn it into Downey's hat. If Lock and Co are telling the truth it could be their homburg then.

Having taken the role out of the brim and having put a fedora's bash into the crown, what makes it a Homburg at all? What, after all makes a Homburg a Homburg and a fedora a fedora? Moreover, given what I consider a once venerable hatter's sad turn, why would a multi-million dollar cinema project turn to Lock for their hats?

Buzz

 

[Art Fawcett]

I suppose it is possible that it could be a form of Homburg with a much flatter rolled brim rather than the curled-up sides style we commonly see? Does anyone know if that was something that was done during the period -- that difference in the roll of the brim?

If it does not have the brim roll, it is not a Homburg. There are variations of brim rolls but a flat brim has never been a Homburg option to my knowledge. Once it is flattened, it is no longer Homburg.

I agree the brim on the movie hat looks significantly wider than the Christy's website Homburg offering-yet it clearly has the bound brim edge. Puzzling.

Brim binding is done in various ways and the one most associated with Homburg is wide on the bottom and narrow on top but, the binding does NOT make a Homburg style.

Apparently when given to Downey's he beat and bent it till it looked like it did in the final film.

Here's where I am adamant. There is NO WAY this statement could be true. No amount of beating or bending is going to take the curl out of a Homburg. Here is where I object.

Jimmy, in the picture I see the sides still seem to hold their curl albeit in slighter form. Is this a true pic and my eyes are right? If so, this is what I would expect to achieve using a huge amount of steam and pressing for all I'm worth. Please note, the sides are still curled in this hat and NOT in the Downey hat.In fact, the Downey hat seems to have a downward curve, not upward. Is it possible? sure, with the right equipment, huge steam, and more talent than I have. Please note that the Downey hat brim seems to be relaxed into the shape it is where in the pic of JtL's lid it seems stressed, especially at the front and at the brim break on the sides. The stress comes from the binding and isn't displayed in Downey's hat. This is probably the biggest reason I don't believe this started life as a Homburg. That stress is virtually impossible to get rid of.

All of that being said please let me say that I have nothing invested in being right here and really don't care. I'm just trying to have bad information, if it is, not being read as "fact" just because I ( or any other hatter) didn't dispute it. I've often seen incorrect info become "common knowledge" for this reason alone.

 

[avedwards]

Here's where I am adamant. There is NO WAY this statement could be true. No amount of beating or bending is going to take the curl out of a Homburg. Here is where I object.

Jimmy, in the picture I see the sides still seem to hold their curl albeit in slighter form. Is this a true pic and my eyes are right? If so, this is what I would expect to achieve using a huge amount of steam and pressing for all I'm worth. Please note, the sides are still curled in this hat and NOT in the Downey hat.In fact, the Downey hat seems to have a downward curve, not upward. Is it possible? sure, with the right equipment, huge steam, and more talent than I have. Please note that the Downey hat brim seems to be relaxed into the shape it is where in the pic of JtL's lid it seems stressed, especially at the front and at the brim break on the sides. The stress comes from the binding and isn't displayed in Downey's hat. This is probably the biggest reason I don't believe this started life as a Homburg. That stress is virtually impossible to get rid of.

All of that being said please let me say that I have nothing invested in being right here and really don't care. I'm just trying to have bad information, if it is, not being read as "fact" just because I ( or any other hatter) didn't dispute it. I've often seen incorrect info become "common knowledge" for this reason alone.

Thank you for clarifying the matter Mr Fawcett, hopefully once and for all. I will consider all homburg evidence null and void from now on, and I'm sorry for having re-opened the debate after you already stated the improbability of the hat being a homburg.

 

[jimmy the lid]

Jimmy, in the picture I see the sides still seem to hold their curl albeit in slighter form. Is this a true pic and my eyes are right?

Toward the rear of the hat, the brim retained its Homburg curl. At the front, things had been flattened, but, because of the hat's origins, the brim seemed to be at war with itself. Yes, it had been flattened, but the brim seemed to be straining against this -- it hadn't really relaxed into a fedora style brim. Does this make sense?

Cheers,
JtL

 

[Lefty]

just to tie things together, here's the Snap brim Homburg thread

 

[Bourbon Guy]

I'm not even going to read this thread. Holmes wore a deerstalker. Period.

I don't care what RDJ Jr.'s modern "gay sherlock" interpretation may be. And I don't care what the WWII movies had him wearing.

Holmes did NOT wear a fedora.

 

[Aureliano]

I'm not even going to read this thread. Holmes wore a deerstalker. Period.

Holmes did NOT wear a fedora.

I'm still going to read this thread but I have to concur. Holmes didn't wear a fedora. I saw the movie. I found it very entertaining. Very Hollywood, sure, and not accurate to the books. But nonetheless, very fun. I liked the hats. Jude Law's quasi top hat.

 

[Delthayre]

Daft country hat

A deerstalker? Rubbish! Unless the great detective were in the country, almost surely he would have worn a top hat and perhaps occasionally a homburg. My assertion is, of course, thoroughly influenced by how Jeremy Brett was dressed for the part.

I liked the hats. Jude Law's quasi top hat.

That, "quasi top hat," was quite likely a variety of Cambridge bowler; a kind of hat famously worn by Winston Churchill.

 

[Bourbon Guy]

A deerstalker? Rubbish! Unless the great detective were in the country, almost surely he would have worn a top hat and perhaps occasionally a homburg. My assertion is, of course, thoroughly influenced by how Jeremy Brett was dressed for the part.



That, "quasi top hat," was quite likely a variety of Cambridge bowler; a kind of hat famously worn by Winston Churchill.

Rubbish!

Show me the literary reference for Holmes wearing anything but a deerstalker. Holmes was not a proper gentleman. He was an oddball genius. Country clothes in the city? Absolutely.

 

[Tiller]

I'm not even going to read this thread. Holmes wore a deerstalker. Period.

I don't care what RDJ Jr.'s modern "gay sherlock" interpretation may be. And I don't care what the WWII movies had him wearing.

Holmes did NOT wear a fedora.

Holmes didn't wear a deerstalker! Not once in the stories was he described as wearing one. Only a few of the original pictures have him wearing one, and only then when he is out in the country dressed completely in tweed. He usually wore a top hat, or a bowler, or other such head wear that was worn by the upper classes in the Victorian age. Holmes was descended from Country Squires, and was a member of the landed gentry class. He wouldn't be wearing a deerstalker in the city!

I mean come on he lived it 1889 not 2009 their were unofficial dress codes so such faux pas didn't happen . The worlds most famous detective (no matter how bohemian in his neatness or lack thereof) wouldn't want to be seen dressed as a hick . For God's sakes the man served Europe's Royalty .

Rubbish!

Show me the literary reference for Holmes wearing anything but a deerstalker. Holmes was not a proper gentleman. He was an oddball genius. Country clothes in the city? Absolutely.

He was a genius, and rather an odd duck for his time, but much like his smarter brother he still was a Victorian.

 

[Bourbon Guy]

Good. Now we're getting there.

Now show me Holmes in a fedora. Hah!

 

[avedwards]

I'd just like to clafity some things about literary Holmes' headwear.

Show me the literary reference for Holmes wearing anything but a deerstalker. Holmes was not a proper gentleman. He was an oddball genius. Country clothes in the city? Absolutely.

Firstly, the majority of the original illustrations of stories taking place in the city show him in a top hat or bowler and usually wearing what appears to be correct morning dress. In "The Hound of the Baskervilles" when leaving his house to follow Dr Mortimer and Sir Henry it even mentions that he puts on a frock coat, suggesting he likes to be respectable. So evidently Mr Holmes may be eccentric but he is most certainly a gentleman.

Holmes didn't wear a deerstalker! Not once in the stories was he described as wearing one. Only a few of the original pictures have him wearing one, and only then when he is out in the country dressed completely in tweed. He usually wore a top hat, or a bowler, or other such head wear that was worn by the upper classes in the Victorian age. Holmes was descended from Country Squires, and was a member of the landed gentry class. He wouldn't be wearing a deerstalker in the city!

Doyle doesn't use the word deerstalker but calls it an "ear-flapped travelling cap" or a cloth cap on other occaisions. I agree, he would not wear it in the city but he certainly does wear a deerstalker in the country.


So we can conclude, that Doyle's Holmes is appropriately dressed for both town and country. He wears a topper or bowler in town and a deerstalker in the country. There is solid evidence for this in Doyle's books as I have proven, but if anyone isn't satisfied I will search for more evidence.

 

[Doctor Strange]

Agreed: the deerstalker image that's come to represent the stereotypical Sherlock Holmes, begun by one of the Sidney Paget magazine illustrations, was never described as his usual hat in the original stories.

The first two Basil Rathbone films, the 1939 ones set in the Victorian period, portray him in the standard upper-crust gentlemen's headgear of the time. (But he does also wear the deerstalker and inverness cape later in both films, somewhat more appropriately in the country setting of The Hound of the Baskervilles.)

From The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes:

 

[The Lark]

Made this just before in photoshop using my own hat and pipe

based on this image

http://www.obsessedwithfilm.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/sherlock-3-copy.jpg

 

[CRH]

Made this just before in photoshop using my own hat and pipe

...

The Lark strikes again! :eusa_clap

 

[avedwards]

Agreed: the deerstalker image that's come to represent the stereotypical Sherlock Holmes, begun by one of the Sidney Paget magazine illustrations, was never described as his usual hat in the original stories.

The first two Basil Rathbone films, the 1939 ones set in the Victorian period, portray him in the standard upper-crust gentlemen's headgear of the time. (But he does also wear the deerstalker and inverness cape later in both films, somewhat more appropriately in the country setting of The Hound of the Baskervilles.)

Costumewise those two Rathbone films were perfect. All characters wear period accurate and character-accurate clothing. As for Holmes wearing a deerstalker in The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes (despite being in the city) I think he can be excused as he is chasing criminals at night and therefore hardly on show. I think the idea is that his deerstalker and Inverness cape are supposed to be his "adventuring gear".

 

[ScottF]

just to tie things together, here's the Snap brim Homburg thread

Off-topic, but...the Chamois you posted in the above thread is really amazing. It does look like the 'Columbia' model, which I think is what so many were wearing in "There Will be Blood", and what Douglas' super-cool nutria western is as well.

How did you come up with the date?