" The Great British Hat Makers "

[mayserwegener]

Fantastic! It looks to be in NOS condition. Take a look at Scott & Co. hats earlier in this thread for dating help.

 

[Alive'n'Amplified]

Stellar Scott, Iain!! The lining is beautiful, and I love the detail in the sweatband.

 

[ManofKent]

That's a lovely Scott. Whilst their bowlers pop up fairly frequently, you don't see many of their fedoras for sale.

 

[mikespens]

Echo the sentiments Iain, very nice lid.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Baron, that is indeed very interesting. You have a good eye! Could you tell us why? Or an Idea why!

It's got to be, I imagine that they had a stock of pre-printed sweatbands from before the addition of numbers to the postal code in 1917. or they were spectacularly behind the times.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

I'd guess it's perhaps 50's maybe?

"By appointment to HM the Queen" so must be post-52. Interestingly, note that the crown liner has the pre-1917 postal code, and the sweatband has the post-1917 code. They seem to have been very slack with their postal code usage!

 

[simonc]

BK your pedantry precedes you, :eusa_clap

 

[Rabbit]

Baron, thanks for pointing the inconsistencies in their use of the sweatband stock. It shows how easily our simple dating methods can be fooled.

Btw, that Scotts Homburg of mine is a war-time product dated Dec 9th 1941 if memory serves, and the shipping box it was originally sold in is dated and stamped 1949.

 

[T Jones]

Boss of the Plains

Who woudda thought....Here's something I recently learned, the famed Stetson "Boss Of The Plains" cowboy hat was originally made by "Christy's Hats of Bristol, England"...

The first Boss of the Plains was sold in Central City Colorado in 1865, and quickly became a marketing marvel. Everyone in the west had to have one, and Stetson was hard pressed to keep up with the demand. Most people think John B. Stetson invented the Boss of the Plains. He did not. Mister Stetson was a talented promoter and marketer - and there in lay his gift. Christy's Hats of Bristol, England, held the patent on this design and after losing a lengthy court battle, Stetson ended up having to pay a licensing fee to Christy's Hats for the use of the Boss of the Plains design.

http://www.thelastbestwest.com/old_west_hats.htm

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Baron, thanks for pointing the inconsistencies in their use of the sweatband stock. It shows how easily our simple dating methods can be fooled.

Btw, that Scotts Homburg of mine is a war-time product dated Dec 9th 1941 if memory serves, and the shipping box it was originally sold in is dated and stamped 1949.

Dating vintage stuff is a bitch! Who knows when any of the trimmings were originally made and then when they were actually used. I think we're all well accustomed to the idea that a big company like Scott, or Locke … Dunn & Co, whoever, would be buying stuff in large quantities. I know for sure that where the Henry Heath factory was around the back of the south side of Oxford Street, there was a place specialising in sweatbands - working mostly for the military outfitters Hobson & Son. It would make sense for Heath to have used them, and bought in bulk.

Heath building is still there, btw:

My own take is this. Most hat companies would have been relatively up to date in terms of postal codes and King/Queen/Prince of Wales stampings. But they wouldn't necessarily have thrown out the old ones - capital invested, who knows when they might be needed. Le's say we suddenly get another king and prince of wales, we can start using the old ones again … Then in the war years, anyone producing basic goods for clothing - cloth, leather trimmings, trimmings of any kind - were sequestered and ordered over to military production. Many tailors went out of business 'cause almost every mill in the country was turned over exclusively to khaki, airforce blue and Navy blue. Tailors were using up old cloth that had been made long ago in the past to fulfill their civilian orders. It's very possible that commercial hatters to the civilian trade had to fall back on old stocks of out-of-date sweatbands.

This goes no way to explaining the egregious error of Piccadilly, W. in 1952!

 

[Rabbit]

Wartime and early postwar production of civilian clothes surely required a lot of improvisation.
I realized there's a flaw in my reasoning on the dating of my Scotts Homburg. For all we know it might actually be a postwar production with an old liner stamped Dec 9th 1941...

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Wartime and early postwar production of civilian clothes surely required a lot of improvisation.
I realized there's a flaw in my reasoning on the dating of my Scotts Homburg. For all we know it might actually be a postwar production with an old liner stamped Dec 9th 1941...

Yes, absolutely right. Though with a dated part, I don't think it's to much of a stretch to imagine that the whole hat was put together at the same time. The liner could just as easily have been replaced in 2013, to follow that reasoning to its conclusion.

I've been working through the early war editions of The Tailor and Cutter at the library, and the cost to tailors and clothmakers (and I assume every other industry of the type) was amazing. They were forced to take out an extra insurance against war damage to their stock - to the tune of, like 25% of the total value of stock held … every QUARTER. Obviously these costs were passed on from the tanner, to the sweatband maker, to the hatter, to the customer, with a wee cut extra in "allowable profit". So, using up old stock would allow a company to offer a hat, say, at a much lower price than the competitor who had to buy a new sweatband at vastly inflated prices. Therefore use of old trimmings. This before price fixing came in, in about 1941, and the retailer wasn't allowed to ask usurious prices for low end goods (luxury goods were largely exempt), but neither was he allowed to significantly undercut his competitors.

 

[mayserwegener]

I am bit skeptical regarding date stamps (at least on German and Austrian hats). I can see the part inventory situation playing a part. Most seem to make sense but not always. For example this hat is stamped 1950 on the paper label but it looks later.

http://germanaustrianhats.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/20-rehfus-federleicht/#entry597

 

[Chepstow]

Robert Heath Ltd Homburger Size 7 1/8

Nice short brimmed Homburger in a good condition. Some less traces on the sweatband and one or two traces (scratches) at the brim-binding!
Under the sweatband the Felt Hatter & Trimmers Unions stamp.
These stamps were in use from 1890 - 19..

http://www.google.de/imgres?um=1&sa...115&start=0&ndsp=31&ved=1t:429,r:25,s:0,i:163

http://www.google.de/imgres?start=9...=96&tbnw=159&ndsp=29&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:100,i:4

Very Interesting Article

 

[ManofKent]

Nice find - I wonder if there was any connection with Henry Heath

 

[Chepstow]

Thanks Richard, Henry was his father!

Wealthy Hat Manufacturer Print
Written by Elizabeth Herts


When Robert Heath stood in front of the altar with Jane Jeffcoat at Islington Parish Church on 12th April 1849, his life became inextricably linked with the wider Jeffcoat family. In fact, in life and in death the impression is that the Jeffcoat family was taken into his heart and often his home, while his involvement with his large Heath family was not as great.

Indeed, the witnesses of his marriage were Daniel Jeffcoat, Jane’s father, and Susannah Randolph, Jane’s cousin on her mother’s side. Robert’s father is given as 'Henry Heath, Gentleman'. No mention is given of Robert’s profession on his marriage certificate, just 'Gentleman' as well.

Robert Heath was the fourth son of Henry Heath, a hat manufacturer of some repute with premises at 393 Oxford Street (close to Bond Street). Henry Heath had eleven children of whom I am aware, from two marriages.

Robert himself was born on 18th January 1827 and was christened on 9th February 1827 at St Anne’s, Soho (IGI). The next time we glimpse him, aged 14, is on the 1841 census, when he is at boarding school at St Margaret At Cliffe, near Dover, Kent, where Henry Heath sent several of his children for their education.

Robert Heath the Hat ManufacturerFamily LifeRobert Heath’s WillUnited in Death


We do not know how Robert Heath was occupied during the 1840s, but I would imagine that he was learning the trade of the hatter and hat manufacturer. I would be intrigued to know how he met Jane Jeffcoat, and thus become so involved in my family’s history. However, by the time of his marriage in 1849, Robert was already living at St George’s Place, Hyde Park. From my research I know that he established his hat business in the year of his marriage – 1849.

This link [1905 Lace Ballgown] shows a child’s outfit including a hat, which is stamped:
“TO HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN AND THE ROYAL FAMILY
ROBERT HEATH
25, ST GEORGE’S PLACE
HYDE PARK CORNER
ESTABLISHED 1849”

I would assume that his father, Henry Heath, assisted him in setting up in business. It is noticeable that Robert did not join the family business, but set up by himself. Some of his siblings took over the family business in Oxford Street when his father died in 1877. I have located Henry’s will, but at the time of writing I have had not had time to purchase it.

The Jeffcoat ties

Jane Jeffcoat was nearly seven years older than Robert Heath. They are both given as being 'of full age' on their marriage certificate, but Robert was only 22 and Jane nearly 29. She was born on 20th April 1820 at Upper Winchendon in Buckinghamshire, the daughter of Daniel Jeffcoat and his wife Anne (my 3x great grandparents). Daniel had been raised as a Quaker, but was christened on his wedding day to Anne Parrot in 1815. In 1827 Daniel moved his family from Winchendon and settled firstly in Greenford, where he farmed, and then, ten years later, in Islington.

On the 1841 Census, Jane is a Milliner, and one would assume it was this trade which led to her meeting Robert Heath. I wonder if in fact she worked for Henry Heath, and the young Robert was taken with her. Certainly, he was not discouraged by the age gap between them.

The ties between the Heath and Jeffcoat families were further strengthened when, on 11th April 1858, Robert Heath’s younger sister, Emily Heath, married Joseph Jeffcoat, Jane’s youngest sibling. Emily was born in 1836 and Joseph in 1828, the only Jeffcoat child to be born in Greenford.

The overall impression is that Joseph Jeffcoat and Robert Heath were good friends. It can be no coincidence that by 1851 Joseph Jeffcoat was established as a brush maker in the Brompton Road, not far from his sister and future brother-in-law. Later on, I will demonstrate that they were also close in death.

http://ftfmagazine.lewcock.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=227

 

[FrankMc]

There was a chain of men's stores in Great Britain named Dunn & Co. They had great looking sports caps and deerstalkers, but I am told they are out of business, a shame. Who sells those same quality hats, or who makes them?

 

[Chepstow]

Frank, welcome here, Herbert Johnson in UK make some good Caps or Christys!

 

[ManofKent]

Manfred - thanks for the article. I've not found any Robert Heath hats - only the odd Henry Heath Homburg in very small sizes.

 

[ManofKent]

There was a chain of men's stores in Great Britain named Dunn & Co. They had great looking sports caps and deerstalkers, but I am told they are out of business, a shame. Who sells those same quality hats, or who makes them?

Frank - Christy's make nice caps and have an online store (I'd avoid their Crown series though). Both Olney and Failsworth make decent caps too and can be picked up from a number of online retailers.