The Great Beer Thread

[anon`]

No, I probably shouldn't put that forward as an incontrovertible fact. It would seem that most bottles take long enough to hit store shelves to have been bottle-conditioned, though, and the vast majority of microbreweries don't filter or pasteurize, so forced carbonation isn't strictly necessary.

But I see your point, and on second consideration I also see the economic argument in favor it.

 

[1961MJS]

This discussion must be careful to differentiate between ales and lagers. I have had "clear" lagered beer that was cask-conditioned (and then not filtered), and was excellent.

Hi

I understand what an ale and a lager is, but why differentiate between them with respect to cask conditioned etc?

Inquiring minds wanna know. I didn't understand your statement.

Later

 

[dnjan]

Hi

I understand what an ale and a lager is, but why differentiate between them with respect to cask conditioned etc?

Inquiring minds wanna know. I didn't understand your statement.

Later

I've never run into a "clear" cask-conditioned ale, but the lagering process can produce a clear cask-conditioned lager.
My comment was referring to a previous statement that "clear" beers needed to be force-carbonated, which I do not believe to be universally true.

 

[majormajor]

I can copy and paste from Wikipedia, as well...

I'm sure you can, my friend. So maybe read it BEFORE you post, rather than afterwards......

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you've only ever been exposed to BMC beers.

I'll be honest - I don't know or care what that acronym means, but as I've only drunk beer, over the last 40 years, in England, Ireland, Scotland, Wales, France, Germany, Austria, Belgium, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece, Turkey, Sweden, Norway, Switzerland,Tunisia, Canada and both the East & West Coasts of the USA (and some bits inbetween), maybe I missed it. Shame on me! Two good friends of mine, who both own substantial breweries couldn't tell me, either. So there you go...

That's probably why the vast majority of American (and, I expect, European) brewers don't do it. And all of those breweries condition their bottled beers in the bottle.

The vast majority of bottled beers in the US and Europe (indeed, the world) are NOT bottled conditioned. If the bottle has a note saying not to pour out the last drop into the glass (because it will contain yeast), then it is - but they are very few and far between. The phrase "vast majority" simply doesn't apply....

As for lagers, they're clear because of good brewing technique.

Lagers are the way they are because they are bottom fermented at low temperatures. Whether that is good or bad is open to opinion. However it IS a fact that the lower the temperature, the less it is possible to taste anything! I'm sure Wikipedia can go into more detail.

There is no reason that you can't naturally condition a lager, even in a bottle.

Yes there is. Cost and shelf life for two. Which is why the vast majority of the world's lager beers are ice cold, filtered, gassed up, dead liquids, designed to quench a thirst, and get you stoned. End of story....

My original post was simply to refute the assertion that draught beer somehow "needed" C02. In the UK, at least, we have proved that not to be the case. There may be a few US bars prepared to install the necessary temperature control systems in their cellars (or even have cellars!) and train their staff in the skills of cellarwork and correct dispense, but there wont be many. Because it costs bucks, and only in the long term is there a return.

We could argue the merits of top vs bottom fermented beer till the cows come home - but top fermented "traditional" beer has been a staple here in the UK since before the USA (or lager) existed. So, whatever you say in defence of cold, dead beer, my friend, you know I won't agree with you

PS. What do I mean by "traditional"?? Well, I can trace my family (in England) back to 1580. And the beer I drink is probably pretty similar to the stuff my 13x great grandfather drank back then. It'll do for me.

 

[anon`]

Nobody is defending "cold, dead beer."

All the good stuff that the "Craft Brewer" talks so lovingly of is filtered out. Then it's pasteurised so it will last for ever. And then fed with C02 so it will make you belch and fart. A real art form.

I'm simply explaining why that is a profoundly incorrect statement, the utterance of which suggests that you have never actually been exposed to micro- or (especially) craft brewing.

But for the sake of posterity: "BMC" is a rather American term for "big beer." It's short, as you may surmise, for Bud, Miller, and Coors, the big three brands of American beer, and flagship brands for three of the biggest brewers in the world (AB InBev, SABMiller, and Molson Coors, respectively). These companies do make "dead" lagers. They use virtually no malt and huge bills of corn and/or rice for their fermentables, "flavor" the beer with hop oil extract, cold filter the result (which removes not only leftover yeast, but also coagulated cold break material), then pasteurize and overcarbonate the result.

The typical micro- or craft brewery will utilize grain bills with base malts in excess of half by weight, with adjuncts being used sparingly. Hops are typically processed, which is a necessity in the industry if you want year-round production, but only to the extent necessary to prevent spoilage. Pellets are most common (at least in the US), and they are not hugely different than other forms of hop, though not identical, either. Few finished beers are filtered, with most clearing being done in bright tanks. Very few microbreweries pasteurize the finished product. While I misspoke about carbonation earlier, many microbrews will yield sufficient viable yeast to start a culture if you make a point of collecting dregs.

 

[majormajor]

Nobody is defending "cold, dead beer."


I'm simply explaining why that is a profoundly incorrect statement, the utterance of which suggests that you have never actually been exposed to micro- or (especially) craft brewing.

But for the sake of posterity: "BMC" is a rather American term for "big beer." It's short, as you may surmise, for Bud, Miller, and Coors, the big three brands of American beer, and flagship brands for three of the biggest brewers in the world (AB InBev, SABMiller, and Molson Coors, respectively). These companies do make "dead" lagers. They use virtually no malt and huge bills of corn and/or rice for their fermentables, "flavor" the beer with hop oil extract, cold filter the result (which removes not only leftover yeast, but also coagulated cold break material), then pasteurize and overcarbonate the result.

The typical micro- or craft brewery will utilize grain bills with base malts in excess of half by weight, with adjuncts being used sparingly. Hops are typically processed, which is a necessity in the industry if you want year-round production, but only to the extent necessary to prevent spoilage. Pellets are most common (at least in the US), and they are not hugely different than other forms of hop, though not identical, either. Few finished beers are filtered, with most clearing being done in bright tanks. Very few microbreweries pasteurize the finished product. While I misspoke about carbonation earlier, many microbrews will yield sufficient viable yeast to start a culture if you make a point of collecting dregs.

As I said, my friend, we won't agree. The "Craft" breweries in the US, are doing an excellent job, in a lousy market, where the majority don't give a shit. Pour it down the neck. (that also seems to apply to the young "lagerlouts" here in the UK).

Your idea of "bottle conditioned" is a very American one. In UK terms, it beggars belief. And if you described those beers as such in the UK, you would fall foul of our Trades Descriptions Act.

Let's agree to disagree. In fact, let's drink on it!

PS. I drink beer from Microbreweries every day (no, I'm cutting down - every week!)

 

[1961MJS]

I've never run into a "clear" cask-conditioned ale, but the lagering process can produce a clear cask-conditioned lager.
My comment was referring to a previous statement that "clear" beers needed to be force-carbonated, which I do not believe to be universally true.

Thanks, now I understand.

Later

 

[anon`]

Your idea of "bottle conditioned" is a very American one. In UK terms, it beggars belief. And if you described those beers as such in the UK, you would fall foul of our Trades Descriptions Act.

And your idea of "craft" beer is a very, well, uninformed one.

But go ahead and do your English thing. Cask ales are great, but not the be-all, end-all of beer. For posterity, one more time, here's the American thing:
1) "Bottle-conditioned" means that final conditioning and, more tangibly, carbonation occurs in the bottle. This can be done in two days: bottling prior to completion of the actual conditioning phase (not to be confused), or by adding additional fermentables to the unfiltered beer during the bottling process.
2) "Craft brewery" is an industry term of art in America. Production must be below 6m barrels annually, and no beverage company not itself a craft brewery may hold more than a 24% stake in it.
3) "Microbrewery" is also an industry term of art, being a craft brewery whose production is between 15,000 and 2m barrels annually.

Oh yeah, and I have regular-production bottles from Deschutes, Sierra Nevada, and New Belgium in my fridge right now. They're all unfiltered, unpasteurized, and bottle-conditioned.

 

[majormajor]

And your idea of "craft" beer is a very, well, uninformed one.

But go ahead and do your English thing. Cask ales are great, but not the be-all, end-all of beer. For posterity, one more time, here's the American thing:
1) "Bottle-conditioned" means that final conditioning and, more tangibly, carbonation occurs in the bottle. This can be done in two days: bottling prior to completion of the actual conditioning phase (not to be confused), or by adding additional fermentables to the unfiltered beer during the bottling process.
2) "Craft brewery" is an industry term of art in America. Production must be below 6m barrels annually, and no beverage company not itself a craft brewery may hold more than a 24% stake in it.
3) "Microbrewery" is also an industry term of art, being a craft brewery whose production is between 15,000 and 2m barrels annually.

Oh yeah, and I have regular-production bottles from Deschutes, Sierra Nevada, and New Belgium in my fridge right now. They're all unfiltered, unpasteurized, and bottle-conditioned.

As I said - VERY American.

Like you invented ANY of the three terms you mention?

Yeah, right.

Ever wondered why the "Alien Invasion" movies from Hollywood always depict "the world" as New York or L.A??

You really believe it don't you??

Sad:eusa_clap

PS. You have three nice beers right now, and you keep them in the fridge? (that thing that freezes all the flavour out of them??) I rest my case:beer:

 

[LoveMyHats2]

Not one to veer off the topic so very much but the US beer or beer made elsewhere always reminds me of a humorous story I heard many years ago about a cowboy that claimed he had the strongest beer on the planet and it would take a real man to drink. A stranger in town heard this and asked him to prove it. So the cowboy goes outside, kicks his horse in the crotch, fills his beer mug with what came out of the horse "fluid wise" and told the stranger, "get to drinking". There is a moral to the story, if you think about it long enough, you'll figure it out.

 

[dnjan]

You have three nice beers right now, and you keep them in the fridge? (that thing that freezes all the flavour out of them??)

Unfortunately, most houses in the U.S. lack a proper cellar. Basements have been "finished", and are heated to provide additional living space.
A bit too warm for proper beer ageing.

So many people will keep "good beer" in their fridge for future consumption.

Of course most of us, in that situation, pull their beer out of the refrigerator 30-60 minutes prior to consumption so the beer can warm to proper "cellar" temperature.

 

[anon`]

Unfortunately, most houses in the U.S. lack a proper cellar. Basements have been "finished", and are heated to provide additional living space.
A bit too warm for proper beer ageing.

So many people will keep "good beer" in their fridge for future consumption.

Of course most of us, in that situation, pull their beer out of the refrigerator 30-60 minutes prior to consumption so the beer can warm to proper "cellar" temperature.

To say nothing of apartment living.

 

[jamespowers]

To say nothing of apartment living.

or having the cellar already crowded with wine and champagne.

 

[dnjan]

Ah, but a crowded cellar is fixable ...

 

[anon`]

...whereas a lack of one is not. For the most part, but I'm not buying another fridge.

Way into the Fresh Hopped Porter tonight. As you may expect from Deschutes, this is their flagship Black Butte Porter, brewed with Willamette hops straight from Goschie Farms in Silverton.

I don't have the most sensitive sense of taste on the planet, but the difference from regular Black Butte is amazing. A very apparent roasted malt profile jumps out and gives way to a lingering taste of bittersweet chocolate and... Valencia oranges? Great roasted, slightly bitter aftertaste that hangs on for a long while, with just a bit of sweetness. Extremely full and velvety smooth mouthfeel. The hop character is definitely there, and asserts itself between the first wave of roast and the chocolate notes, but sits back and plays nice with the malt profile.

Wow... doesn't that just sound all absurdly professional? Ha!

 

[1961MJS]

Hi

I, in a throwback to high school and college days, am actually drinking a Pabst Blue Ribbon tall boy. Its cold, fresh, and not completely without taste. It also isn't made with rice. If it's less expensive by the case when the Bud runs out, it's my new red beer base.

Later

 

[AtomicEraTom]

That's what I like to hear!

Hi

I, in a throwback to high school and college days, am actually drinking a Pabst Blue Ribbon tall boy. Its cold, fresh, and not completely without taste. It also isn't made with rice. If it's less expensive by the case when the Bud runs out, it's my new red beer base.

Later

 

[jamespowers]

Ah, but a crowded cellar is fixable ...

What? You coming over with a shovel? lol lol lol

 

[jamespowers]

...whereas a lack of one is not. For the most part, but I'm not buying another fridge.

Way into the Fresh Hopped Porter tonight. As you may expect from Deschutes, this is their flagship Black Butte Porter, brewed with Willamette hops straight from Goschie Farms in Silverton.

I don't have the most sensitive sense of taste on the planet, but the difference from regular Black Butte is amazing. A very apparent roasted malt profile jumps out and gives way to a lingering taste of bittersweet chocolate and... Valencia oranges? Great roasted, slightly bitter aftertaste that hangs on for a long while, with just a bit of sweetness. Extremely full and velvety smooth mouthfeel. The hop character is definitely there, and asserts itself between the first wave of roast and the chocolate notes, but sits back and plays nice with the malt profile.

Wow... doesn't that just sound all absurdly professional? Ha!

I was going to say that for someone with weak tastebuds, you sure got complicated there. All you needed to do was add some comment about the terroir and a respect for the land and heritage and you would be a wine critic. lol lol

 

[jamespowers]

Hi

I, in a throwback to high school and college days, am actually drinking a Pabst Blue Ribbon tall boy. Its cold, fresh, and not completely without taste. It also isn't made with rice. If it's less expensive by the case when the Bud runs out, it's my new red beer base.

Later

They handed me one last time I went to the barber. It was good cold water I give you that.