The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo-An Unnecessary Remake?

[Edward]

Anyway movies are not now nor have they ever been art. Thats why its called show BUSINESS.

Sure - it's the same as the music business. That's the reality, doesn't mean we have to like it.

As a filmmaker, I find subtitles to be a double edge sword. On one hand they allow you to hear the original performances of the actors (as apposed to dubbing) But on the other hand, film is a visual medium, and if I'm spending almost half of my time reading subtitles, I'm missing huge amounts of visual story telling, which is in some ways more important than the dialog.

That is actually a fair point. I suppose it depends on a case by case basis. It can also depend how well the dubbing is done - I know I've watched Nightwatch both ways (both options on the DVD), ditto Dead Snow, and you would often struggle to notice. Some dubbed stuff it's so badly done that I find that far more distracting than the subtitles.

But to be fair, the American release might very well lead some to seek out the original film out of curiosity. Its not like the situation with 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, where Walt Disney bought up all the previous versions of the film and locked them away in a vault.

Yes, this can be the flipside - as long as it's not truly awful it can actually open things up to people. (One reason I remain hopeful about the forthcoming Gatsby flick.)

And also its not like the original "Girl" didn't do well. Its made a little over $100 million at the box office. Thats damn good business for an obscure $13 million dollar film with no stars.

Which might suggest that mainstream audiences aren't always as in thrall to celebrity names and some dumb happy ending as the Hollywood men think they are? ;-)

Or did both movies follow the novel so closely that they have very similar scenes?

Really I just see it as the American version of the film being for an English speaking audience, which is MUCH larger than the Swedish speaking audience.

Add to that, there is a long tradition of film remakes, that are at least as good as the original if not better. A Star Is Born is a perfect example. 12 Monkeys is another. I have no problem with remakes in principle, particularly when it is an adaption of a book.

I have mixed feeling about them. If they can bring something new to it, fair enough.... and yes, some far exceed the original. Coppola's take on Dracula, while far from perfect, was still much closer to the book than the vast majority of interpretations, and the Bogart vehicle version of the Maltese Falcon was the definitive one in my eyes. What does concern me when you start to see a whole glut of remakes and/or sequels is the lack of new ideas that suggests more broadly.

I'd rather wait and see the film for myself and see if its worth while before knocking it.

Yes, fair point.

Another thought about this particular story, is that it may have a large, but limited audience. Both the original and the American films seem to be capped at about $100 million at the box office. Sony may have over estimated the appeal of the books. They spend something like $70 million on production, and probably another $60 to $70 million on advertising. Now it will probably make up the difference on Home Video, but I think it unlikely that there will be American versions of the other two books.

Yes, it'll be interesting to see what happens there. Having seen the Swedish film, I certainly agree that even absent the language barrier it wasn't the sort of popcorn fluff that Hollywood could maximise income with. Maybe if they rewrote it extensively with Jennifer Aniston as Lisbet spending all her time thinking some guy doesn't love her and then - oh, wait - in the end he does. Or someone else who has been better all along..... ha.....

 

[Flicka]

As a filmmaker, I find subtitles to be a double edge sword. On one hand they allow you to hear the original performances of the actors (as apposed to dubbing) But on the other hand, film is a visual medium, and if I'm spending almost half of my time reading subtitles, I'm missing huge amounts of visual story telling, which is in some ways more important than the dialog.

Doug

I'm Swedish (and have neither read nor watched any version of Larsson's books but plan to see the American version because, Trent Reznor made the music and I'm willing to suffer anything for T-Rez). All none Swedish films are subtitled here (only children's films are dubbed here) and FWIW, I think that's partly a matter of how used you are to subtitles. If you're used to them, you somehow manage to keep an eye on both the subtitles and the visual action.

 

[Atomic Age]

I have mixed feeling about them. If they can bring something new to it, fair enough.... and yes, some far exceed the original. Coppola's take on Dracula, while far from perfect, was still much closer to the book than the vast majority of interpretations, and the Bogart vehicle version of the Maltese Falcon was the definitive one in my eyes. What does concern me when you start to see a whole glut of remakes and/or sequels is the lack of new ideas that suggests more broadly.

Yes, it'll be interesting to see what happens there. Having seen the Swedish film, I certainly agree that even absent the language barrier it wasn't the sort of popcorn fluff that Hollywood could maximise income with. Maybe if they rewrote it extensively with Jennifer Aniston as Lisbet spending all her time thinking some guy doesn't love her and then - oh, wait - in the end he does. Or someone else who has been better all along..... ha.....

I can't disagree with your point about most remakes which are typically not well thought out. The Maltese Falcon works so well because it was faithful to the book, which the previous films weren't.

And again to be fair to the American version, they did get one of the most original American directors out there to make the thing. And he isn't exactly a main stream director either.

Doug

 

[Atomic Age]

I'm Swedish (and have neither read nor watched any version of Larsson's books but plan to see the American version because, Trent Reznor made the music and I'm willing to suffer anything for T-Rez). All none Swedish films are subtitled here (only children's films are dubbed here) and FWIW, I think that's partly a matter of how used you are to subtitles. If you're used to them, you somehow manage to keep an eye on both the subtitles and the visual action.

The choice of dubbing an American film or subtitling is really dependent on the country its going to. For the Swedish market, they are typically subtitled, but that is by far the exception. In most countries where English is not the primary language, American films are dubbed into that countries language. So really its not just Americans who don't like reading subtitles.

Doug

 

[LizzieMaine]

Is dubbing at all prevalent anymore? We've been showing art films for going on seven years now, and we've never had a single dubbed picture -- every foreign film we show, and we show a lot of them, has been subtitled.

 

[filfoster]

I'm Swedish (and have neither read nor watched any version of Larsson's books but plan to see the American version because, Trent Reznor made the music and I'm willing to suffer anything for T-Rez). All none Swedish films are subtitled here (only children's films are dubbed here) and FWIW, I think that's partly a matter of how used you are to subtitles. If you're used to them, you somehow manage to keep an eye on both the subtitles and the visual action.

Don't quite a few of us remember many subtitled movies as though we had seen them without? If they are placed correctly and not overlong, they are very effective and hearing the dialogue in the 'native' language adds to the texture of the experience. Well, for many.

 

[Flicka]

The choice of dubbing an American film or subtitling is really dependent on the country its going to. For the Swedish market, they are typically subtitled, but that is by far the exception. In most countries where English is not the primary language, American films are dubbed into that countries language. So really its not just Americans who don't like reading subtitles.

Doug

I know. I can't understand why, though. I once managed tosee Dennis the Menace dubbed in Spanish on a train between Madrid and Alicante. It was completely bizarre.

I love subtitles. I tend to switch on subtitles on dvds even when it's a language I know (like English or Swedish) because I just often find it hard to catch what people say otherwise.

 

[Red Diabla]

Is dubbing at all prevalent anymore? We've been showing art films for going on seven years now, and we've never had a single dubbed picture -- every foreign film we show, and we show a lot of them, has been subtitled.

The only example I can think of offhand are the domestic releases of Studio Ghibli films through Disney.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

Gotta love subtitles.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hi481ckNruk

 

[Tomasso]

subtitled movies...... If they are placed correctly

I just love it when subtitles are placed on a white/light colored background and I missed a sentence of dialogue. That occurrence is all too frequent.

 

[Atomic Age]

Is dubbing at all prevalent anymore? We've been showing art films for going on seven years now, and we've never had a single dubbed picture -- every foreign film we show, and we show a lot of them, has been subtitled.

Art films are typically not dubbed, but I think it often has more to do with how much it costs than anything else. Subtitles cost a fraction of what dubbing sessions do.

But as I said, most American films sent to other countries are dubbed. But that choices is mostly determined by what the audiences in those countries want. Also the dubbing on American films is normally much better (they actually sound like the actor in the location rather than an actor in a dubbing both) than those coming from elsewhere.

Doug

 

[Tomasso]

Rooney Mara stole the movie.

 

[jamespowers]

Bring ont eh American movie without distracting subtitles. The dang things give me a headache. I could care less what the original language sounds like or how it looks coming fromt he characters. If it is in English then there is no distraction and I can just watch them film without missing half of what is said and just plain not getting the film at all. I'll live if the guy who gives me what I want and makes a buck at it.

 

[Edward]

The choice of dubbing an American film or subtitling is really dependent on the country its going to. For the Swedish market, they are typically subtitled, but that is by far the exception. In most countries where English is not the primary language, American films are dubbed into that countries language. So really its not just Americans who don't like reading subtitles.

Doug

I think it varies a lot from market to market - and yes, it is the market that dictates it. I remember a time when the French were big on dubbing English language films (don't know if they still are). The Germans and Dutch, in my experience, subtitle - as do the Chinese. Subtitling is incredibly common in China: most shows I've seen in Mandarin are also subtitled into Cantonese, and vice versa. Dubbing can be amusing when you're used to the real actor's voice. Eddie Izzard tells a story about a routine he used to do based on the joke that Sean Connery uses his own accent in everything. His (rather good) impression fell flat in France, and he later discovered this was because the French were so used to having his voice dubbed by someone else they didn't recognise the real thing (or a take-off thereon). The most unusual dubbing experience I had was in Poland, nearly twelve years ago. Escape to Victory dubbed into Polish, but by just one man translating all parts, and with the original voice soundtrack low in the background, still audible. It was like sitting beside someone translating the entire film for you.

Is dubbing at all prevalent anymore? We've been showing art films for going on seven years now, and we've never had a single dubbed picture -- every foreign film we show, and we show a lot of them, has been subtitled.

Here in the UK, Forn Films are typically in the cinema subtitled now, but DVD varies. Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon was sold, if I remember rightly, at retail as either dubbed or subtitled. Others such as Nightwatch or Dead Snow come on DVD with a choice of dubbed or original, and a choice of subtitles.

 

[DJH]

Rooney Mara stole the movie.

Agree!

 

[Atomic Age]

I think it varies a lot from market to market - and yes, it is the market that dictates it. I remember a time when the French were big on dubbing English language films (don't know if they still are). The Germans and Dutch, in my experience, subtitle - as do the Chinese. Subtitling is incredibly common in China: most shows I've seen in Mandarin are also subtitled into Cantonese, and vice versa. Dubbing can be amusing when you're used to the real actor's voice. Eddie Izzard tells a story about a routine he used to do based on the joke that Sean Connery uses his own accent in everything. His (rather good) impression fell flat in France, and he later discovered this was because the French were so used to having his voice dubbed by someone else they didn't recognise the real thing (or a take-off thereon). The most unusual dubbing experience I had was in Poland, nearly twelve years ago. Escape to Victory dubbed into Polish, but by just one man translating all parts, and with the original voice soundtrack low in the background, still audible. It was like sitting beside someone translating the entire film for you.



Here in the UK, Forn Films are typically in the cinema subtitled now, but DVD varies. Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon was sold, if I remember rightly, at retail as either dubbed or subtitled. Others such as Nightwatch or Dead Snow come on DVD with a choice of dubbed or original, and a choice of subtitles.

It depends on where you are in China. High illiteracy means that films going into the they country are dubbed, often with changes to the dialog dictated by the communist party.

There is a particular actor who has dubbed almost all of Harrison Fords films into Spanish. Apparently people so identified this voice with Ford, that when he appeared on television for an interview in Mexico, and people could actually hear his real voice, they were startled.

Most American producers now handle the dubbing in the U.S. so that they can control the quality.

Doug

 

[Doctor Strange]

Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon made me nuts. I saw it twice in theaters, subtitled. Then I got the DVD, which in the US release, was dubbed. It's by no means a bad dubbing job, but the English dialog was simplified from the original subtitles. And turning on the DVD's subtitles didn't help, because they essentially just caption the dubbed script - but with even more nuance left out! The reason this especially hurts is because despite being in Chinese, the film was written by an American (Ang Lee's producing partner Jame Schamus), and in this case, he wrote the English script first!

And as far as Swedish/English remakes go, the recent Let Me In provides a good example. It's a very close remake of Let The Right One In, transplanted to New Mexico but still set in the 1980s, with solid acting and direction. But it's nowhere near as freaky/disturbing/fascinating as the Swedish original. I guess if you haven't seen Let The Right One In, Let Me In would be effective, but having seen the original, it comes off as a bad Xerox that's lost a lot of fine detail.

 

[Tomasso]

I guess if you haven't seen Let The Right One In, Let Me In would be effective, but having seen the original, it comes off as a bad Xerox that's lost a lot of fine detail.

But for many (most?) theatre goers subtitles degrade the movie experience even more.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

One of the strangest examples I can think of was the first Mad Max film which was dubbed into "American English" because they didn't think that US audiences could understand the Aussie accents. In a way I liked the Golden Era approach which was to concurrently shoot the same film in several languages each with a different cast who spoke that language.

Dracula (Original Version)

[video=youtube;Sqej6t29ygc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sqej6t29ygc[/video]

Dracula (Spanish Version)

[video=youtube;TiuQE03YNSE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiuQE03YNSE&feature=related[/video]

 

[Edward]

It depends on where you are in China. High illiteracy means that films going into the they country are dubbed, often with changes to the dialog dictated by the communist party.

True, there is that.... to some extent (even when I'm well out of the tourist loop on university business), I do get an outsider's version and stuff aimed at outsiders.

There is a particular actor who has dubbed almost all of Harrison Fords films into Spanish. Apparently people so identified this voice with Ford, that when he appeared on television for an interview in Mexico, and people could actually hear his real voice, they were startled.

Ha, yeah... same principle.

AFAIK, Dead Snow was dubbed by the same cast as performed in the film (I'm sure I read that somewhere...), which would help, though probably isn't often possible.

Most American producers now handle the dubbing in the U.S. so that they can control the quality.

Do they do the TV edits as well, ever? You know, dubbing in "shoot" and "mellon farmers", that sort of thing?

Funniest thing I've ever seen in subtitling was in India. English-language movies, subtitled in English, I suppose for those who struggled with American accents. When the person on screen did a swear, the subtitles left it out. And I don't mean substituted it with another word, or rephrased, or even stuck in some asterisks. They literally just left the word out.... "What the are you doing, you stupid?", that sort of thing. Really bizarre.

Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon made me nuts. I saw it twice in theaters, subtitled. Then I got the DVD, which in the US release, was dubbed. It's by no means a bad dubbing job, but the English dialog was simplified from the original subtitles. And turning on the DVD's subtitles didn't help, because they essentially just caption the dubbed script - but with even more nuance left out! The reason this especially hurts is because despite being in Chinese, the film was written by an American (Ang Lee's producing partner Jame Schamus), and in this case, he wrote the English script first!

Interesting didn't know they'd written it that way around. So were the subtitles in the original, non-dubbed release the actual script then? I know subtitles are often a simplification of what is said on screen. I love Les Visiteurs (remade for America as Just Visiting; okay, but it lost so much of the subtlety and wit from the original French film, even with the two leads played by the same actors). I watched it once with a friend whose French is far and away better than mine, and apparently the dialogue is much ruder and swearier in the original French than the subtitled translation!

And as far as Swedish/English remakes go, the recent Let Me In provides a good example. It's a very close remake of Let The Right One In, transplanted to New Mexico but still set in the 1980s, with solid acting and direction. But it's nowhere near as freaky/disturbing/fascinating as the Swedish original. I guess if you haven't seen Let The Right One In, Let Me In would be effective, but having seen the original, it comes off as a bad Xerox that's lost a lot of fine detail.

Not seen the remake - I'd like to eventually, but I adore the original.

But for many (most?) theatre goers subtitles degrade the movie experience even more.

Unfortunately a lot of those whom I encounter who say it does for them have never actually bothered to watch a subtitled film. Same mindset as won't watch a film in black and white.

[video=youtube;Vt5Ldp7GPew]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vt5Ldp7GPew[/video]

11:48 - "Is it subtitled or is it dubbed?"

One of the strangest examples I can think of was the first Mad Max film which was dubbed into "American English" because they didn't think that US audiences could understand the Aussie accents.

Oh dear. Oh very dear. I did hear a story that they dubbed Trainspotting for the US market to have characters discuss "semester grades" instead of "o-levels" and so on. I dearly hope that wasn't true!