The general decline in standards today

[Dennis Young]

Lizzie publicly addressed a public action on your part, DY.

You are on ‘ignore’ from now on. I think its best.

 

[LizzieMaine]

It happens, especially on a day like this. This thread has generated quite a bit of PMming. In any event, I have cleared some space.

 

[Feraud]

I think that post # 5924 may well be the best post in the history of this forum.

AF

I absolutely agree!!

 

[Fading Fast]

I think that post # 5924 may well be the best post in the history of this forum.

AF

A very strong post. I have no doubt that Lizzie and I would disagree on about 80% of our politics (I'd probably surprise her on 10-15% of mine, as she may well on hers), but I have incredible respect for her - her character, her knowledge and her generosity in being willing to share it. Also, my impression is that she is a generous person in her personal life and has more character / honesty / decency than most people I know. While we'd have to occasionally agree to disagree and move on, I have no doubt I'd enjoy spending time with her - going to a Seadog's ballgame sounds like a great idea.

I have several friends who also are not aligned with me politically, so in my personal life, I haven't seen the separation into groups that she mentions, but as a country we do feel very divided, but aren't we always. Maybe the internet has made it more so - or maybe, as we do at times in our history, our political passions and divides seem greater.

 

[jamespowers]

You're still ignoring the fact that it's not just contained here, where it couldn't in the least stretch be considered topical. But thanks for your response.



Mr. JamesPowers would you like to give me the courtesy of a response?

Ok, you asked for it. I think you presupposed a little too much. In calling me out specifically---a moderator to this site---I seems you have the mistaken ideathat you happen to run this place?Am I missing something?Have you taken over paying our operating costs?Have you become the head Bartender?Have you been moderating posts for over ten years here?Are you familiar with the ignore feature?This seems to be a lot of sound and fury signifying nothing as Shakespeare penned.We do not ban single words here and we never have.If we did, that process would not be pontificated publicly either.It would originate with the bartenders and NOT with a single individual.We have dealt with many problems that you have no idea about in such ways.
Therefore, I am considering this kerfuffle closed.Further badgering and intimidation can be taken up with the people that pay the bills privately.This is my last word on it unless further action is necessary.

 

[Dennis Young]

Kinda what I was wondering.

 

[2jakes]

Before I enter the forum...I usually play a set with 2jakes...

Helps release all the negatives & keeps me in shape as well...

 

[ChiTownScion]

I have just returned from a small group tour around Sussex and Kent, in South East England, visiting the various preserved railways, one line we went on was the Kent & East Sussex, which was good but the staff were angry as the night before one of their stations had been vandalised by the local yobs/school kids who amongst other midless acts, had stolen or damaged some of the old fashioned lamps, which will cost the railway quite alot to get replaced. There is not much chance of catching the blokes that did this and even if they do, there won't be much of a penalty inflicted on them.

Talking about this later on a discussion came up about the general decline in standards and examples shown to children these days compared to 30-40 years ago. The opinion was that these days both parents have to work so leaving kids unsupervised and allowed generally to roam around on their own sometimes unchecked.

In schools too the teachers seem to have to spend far more time doing reports, performance figures, league tables etc and less time teaching the children, also when most of the group were at school the teachers were allowed to give unruly kids lines or dententions etc, (As I remember to my cost!). Now days there does not seem to be any way to keep order. Some of my group were saying that perhaps a return to some of the old ways would not be a bad thing.

We did sound like we should of been on the TV Programme, Grumpy Old Men, especially after the beers had been flowing for a while.

Just went back and saw how this whole tread began nearly five years ago: a reaction to vandalism inflicted by "yobs" on a preserved railway. As one who has spent countless hours enjoying train rides behind preserved steam locomotives and wandering through railroad/ railway museums (and stalking countless rights of way for that perfect photo op) I share STEVIEBOY1's anger at those who'd destroy that which gives so many so much enjoyment.

That said, the original post is practically an Open Sesame cry for a discussion on contemporary politics. Discussing how kids were reprimanded in school when we were growing up vs. what teachers have to deal with now? I mean, how do you discuss a decline in standards while ignoring that elephant of politics in the room? And what is that line of demarcation between a critique of the past and its current fallouts or consequences, and invoking current political rhetoric?

Maybe the die was cast at the onset: it's an impossible task to prevent bringing contemporary rhetoric into this, for members and moderators alike.

Finally, his last remark: "We did sound like we should of been on the TV Programme, Grumpy Old Men, especially after the beers had been flowing for a while." Foreshadowing, indeed.

 

[LizzieMaine]

It's a very fine line to walk, admittedly. But you can hunt and peck thru all 600 pages of the thread and find productive and worthwhile side discussions of dozens of different topics relating in some tangental way to "declining standards." Usually someone complains about something and the discussion spins and brances off into an exploration of why that thing happened, and it very rarely gets overtly political. Most of the members have been around here long enough to know where the line is and how far the discussion can go before it gets into unproductive territory.

The Lounge used to allow full-blown political discussion. The founding group of Loungers, from what I can gather from reading eleven-year-old threads, tended to lean fairly heavily to the right. Most of those early discussions were fairly calm, because most of the participants stood on about the same side of the room, and the tone was sort of like Hank Hill and his buddies standing in the alley. "Them liberals. Yup. Yep. Yup." Then The Lounge began to grow and the viewpoint began to diversify. The discussions started to get tense, and then they started to get ugly. Members got banned. Around the time of the 2008 election it got *really* bad, and it was agreed that politics, as in "HEY CHECK THIS OUT FROM FOX/MSNBC HE REALLY GIVES IT TO THEM GOOD" politics, had to go.

The Lounge has been a better place for it. Those of us who went thru the hostility that existed here before that remember it. It might have been veneered with "good sir" "dear lady" fake civility, but it was nonetheless hostile and if it had continued, the Lounge would have destroyed itself long ago.

Do we have "veiled" political discussions in the guise of criticising modern mores? I'd be an idiot to say we haven't -- but even when that's going on, the very fact of having to keep from getting explicit and specific keeps those discussions under control, most of the time. Would the Lounge be a better place if we didn't have this thread at all? Some people think so, and some think it's a useful safety valve for containing the natural human tendency to grouse. Better this one thread than fifty other grousing threads, which was also a situation that once existed. Abolishing grousing about "declining standards" would only channel the grousing into other areas, like grousing about stitch counts and rival manufacturers of overpriced leather jackets. (As if anybody would ever actually grouse about such things.)

 

[ChiTownScion]

Abolishing grousing about "declining standards" would only channel the grousing into other areas, like grousing about stitch counts and rival manufacturers of overpriced leather jackets. (As if anybody would ever actually grouse about such things.)

Talk about hitting me where I live.

Having "made do" with a modestly priced domestic A-2 horsehide jacket, I'm now looking for something warmer for the next brutal Midwest winter, a shearling ANJ-4 jacket. I think I've found what I want, but your term, "overpriced," says it all. It's the sad reality of warm shearling jackets.

After doing as much research as I could, it came down to two manufacturers: one that sated my Be American/ Buy American reflex (their model runs $1,700., but supposedly is built like a tank in terms of indestructibility) and one whose product is made in Scotland (available for about $1,150 at the current rate of exchange : it is supposed to be durable and very comfortable, with a very soft and thick fleece lining and collar).

My sole justification is that the thing will last me for the rest of my life, although I have yet to break the news to my dear wife: she hates it when I spend my squirrelled away allowance for items with a big price tag, and she gets freaked when I invoke my mortality by saying things like "This jacket will last longer than I will." (Go figure, huh?)

The standard signoff for this genre of grouse over the price of jackets is, of course, is to sigh deeply and proclaim with resignation, "You get what you pay for." I'll keep practicing that sigh..

 

[LizzieMaine]

Ooweee. I got thru the entire winter here -- including six weeks where the temperature never got above 15 degrees -- wearing a second-hand Harris Tweed coat I got on eBay for twenty bucks.

I have an old sheepskin -- not a coat, just a skin -- out on my porch that the cat likes to use as a bed in the summer. It's shedding a bit, but if it's on the inside of the coat who would notice? What could I get for it?

 

[sheeplady]

One of the reasons why I don't believe in corporal punishment is that I don't trust 100% of those that administer it to be 100% level-headed when they do.

I don't think punishment motivated by anger is ever good. I don't think you should punish children when you are angry; it clouds your judgement. Punishment is not about the punisher; it is about correcting wrong behavior. If you spank or otherwise punish your child (or any child) in anger, you are making it about YOU and YOUR FEELINGS not about the "crime" or "correction."

 

[2jakes]

Ooweee. I got thru the entire winter here -- including six weeks where the temperature never got above 15 degrees -- wearing a second-hand Harris Tweed coat I got on eBay for twenty bucks.

I have an old sheepskin -- not a coat, just a skin -- out on my porch that the cat likes to use as a bed in the summer. It's shedding a bit, but if it's on the inside of the coat who would notice? What could I get for it?

Why LizzieMaine is that a smile ?
Is it the good deal on the tweed or no more :smow:...or both ?




"After every storm the sun will smile; for every problem there is a solution,
and the soul's indefeasible duty is to be of good cheer, _ Wm R. Alger

Cheers ! :yo:

 

[ChiTownScion]

I have an old sheepskin -- not a coat, just a skin -- out on my porch that the cat likes to use as a bed in the summer. It's shedding a bit, but if it's on the inside of the coat who would notice? What could I get for it?

Sheeplady is likely a better expert on this than I am, but my understanding is that the quality of fleece is determined in part by the climate where the sheep is from. Those from a damp, chilly climate produce a thicker fleece than, say, a more warm and dry climate.

But I'd never sell a woven wool coat short. I own two overcoats from my Civil War re-enactor days, an infantryman's great coat that I had an extra lining added, and an officer's cloak coat- modelled after an 1850's French officer's coat. They are both very heavy, and the cloak coat has a full detachable cape that extends down to the cuffs of the sleeves. I've worn both in Chicago blizzards, and they are so warm that I was perspiring when the wind chill was around -20F.

Only drawback to the great coat: no pockets. And the cloak coat is almost too much of a good thing: so heavy that walking can be difficult. And it has frogs, not buttons: rigging a sailing ship had to be easier. Although, if you're an equestrian, the tail has a hook and eye that will come undone so that it can be split when you're in the saddle.

 

[DNO]

One of the reasons why I don't believe in corporal punishment is that I don't trust 100% of those that administer it to be 100% level-headed when they do.

I don't think punishment motivated by anger is ever good. I don't think you should punish children when you are angry; it clouds your judgement. Punishment is not about the punisher; it is about correcting wrong behavior. If you spank or otherwise punish your child (or any child) in anger, you are making it about YOU and YOUR FEELINGS not about the "crime" or "correction."

This is one of my few 'hot button' issues so I usually remain mute on the subject. Using corporal punishment on young people is, for me, a sure sign of incompetence. It is never...ever...an option. I've had lots of experience dealing with misbehaving teens...35 years as a teacher in an all-boys, public, high school...and there are always intelligent alternatives. One needs to correct behaviour, not punish it. This takes more effort, of course, but you must remember your role as a adult.

Now I'll just go back the the mute state.

 

[HudsonHawk]

I have an old sheepskin -- not a coat, just a skin -- out on my porch that the cat likes to use as a bed in the summer. It's shedding a bit, but if it's on the inside of the coat who would notice? What could I get for it?

Presumably less than what you could get for the whole sheep?

 

[DNO]

Ooweee. I got thru the entire winter here -- including six weeks where the temperature never got above 15 degrees -- wearing a second-hand Harris Tweed coat I got on eBay for twenty bucks.

We've had a very similar winter, Lizzie. Coldest February in history up here. I managed to get by with an old polar fleece vest and an old Eddie Bauer rain shell from a thrift store. Nothing like a bit of layering! Now if I only had a decent pair of boots...even duck shoes. The melt water is ridiculous now.

 

[sheeplady]

Sheeplady is likely a better expert on this than I am, but my understanding is that the quality of fleece is determined in part by the climate where the sheep is from. Those from a damp, chilly climate produce a thicker fleece than, say, a more warm and dry climate.

This is very close- it is more that different climates have different breeds that have been developed to suit that climate and different purposes. With sheep's wool, the longer the staple length- how long the wool grows- is directly related to the coarseness. Longer wool is coarser, shorter wool is softer. Hence Shetland and Merino is soft short wool, only about 3 inches in length over a year. Typically the softer the wool the more dense. Softer wool has fine crimp and short staple length so it tends to "clump", coarser wool has waves or curls and long staple length so it tends to separate into chunks.

This is one of the coarsest wooled British breed (and the largest), the Lincoln:


This is one of the softest wooled British breed (and the smallest), the Shetland:


There are all sorts of things selected for in breeds other than wool, too. The Romney Marsh has hooves resistant to hoof rot and pockets, the Lincoln was bred to make rugs, the Hampshire for weight gain for the meat market. At one time practically every county in Britain had it's own sheep breed adapted to the wool and meat market AND the micro-climate. Most are extinct.

The only exception to that is the Shetland, which is a breed that is barely domesticated. And it shows. They call it "unimproved" which means they don't have a flocking instinct and aim for your knees when you try to catch them.

 

[sheeplady]

Presumably less than what you could get for the whole sheep?

Don't be so sure. Last time i checked you could get an "old mutton special" for around $75.

Not that I have anything against old mutton specials, my parents started their farm off of 3 OMS ewes for $50 a pop in the 1980s. Seller threw in a free ram, too.

 

[dh66]

This morning when I stopped for gas, I went in to grab a cup of coffee while I was there. As I turned to leave I noticed a fancy looking set of samurai swords for sale. Strange to see in a gas station, to say the least. Where the hell is he going with this? you are asking. Well, they were perched atop a glass display case filled with Crimson Tide coffee cups and keychains and assorted cheap Asian import novelty knives and lighters, and crackpipes. Crackpipes and bong pipes for sale in the gas station down at the corner. Nothing unusual about this, really. They are readily available just about anywhere.....but why? Somebody looking for a way to make a buck. Looking to make a buck and not giving one sh*t about any negative repercussions it might have on the community.
It got me thinking as I drove downtown this morning, that this.....the desire to make money over anything else....is truly the root of it all. Every other problem, real or perceived, be it television, internet, drug addiction, juvenile delinquents, hippies (real or imagined), gangsta rappers, pornography, walmart, wars, racism, churches protecting child predators, crappy schools, kids growing up alone because both parents have to work all the time, jobs being outsourced overseas, you name it, if you really look at it long enough, ultimately leads back to somebody somewhere trying to make or -sometimes even worse - protect a profit. And the bigger the bucks at stake, the deeper the damage.