The general decline in standards today

[LizzieMaine]

The original CCC camps of the thirties were under the administrative control of the War Department, and camp discipline was maintained under Army lines, with WW1-era noncoms in charge of enforcement. There might have been the occasional crap game behind the barracks, but alcohol wasn't tolerated.

Any CCC man looking for debauchery had to wait his turn to get a pass into the nearest town, where he might find a place selling beer or a dime-a-bounce small-town prostitute. Most of the camps were far from the bright lights, and a small-town movie was generally the extent of the recreation options.

 

[Touchofevil]

I saved up my money as a child for college. I worked as a teen in fields and orchards or at whatever job I could find to save up and put me through college. My parents made too much money (we had no idea) for me to qualify for free money. Now, I find that I once again do not qualify for free money or rather my step daughter does not because we make too much money. My taxes pay for these who do not wish to contribute to society to have a lot of free time, free phones, free food for their pets, free healthcare, free rent, free food, and free college. I am all for helping the downtrodden, but only when they are willing to help themselves. I am tired of supporting others and their children when I already have a family to support. A mandatory CCC program would be a great way of earning the reward of a "free" college education all the while contributing to the betterment of our communities.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I would *not* want to see the CCC become something only working-class and poor kids do just to get a chance at college. That's what the military has, by and large, become, and the nation has suffered for it.

The kids who really need to experience what the CCC would have to offer are the well-off suburbanites who've never been more than five feet away from a cellphone, and have been brought up to think everything in life is theirs at the swipe of a plastic card. They're the ones who most need the CCC experience -- to break them out of their insulated world of privilege, to force them to mix with people of all class backgrounds, and to understand that they are, by no means, the center of the universe. Economic class distinctions in America are becoming more and more rigid -- and we need to do something to break them. A mandatory CCC program -- for *all* young people, with no exemptions, no strings that could be pulled by Upper Middle Class Daddy -- would do that.

 

[ChiTownScion]

I would *not* want to see the CCC become something only working-class and poor kids do just to get a chance at college. That's what the military has, by and large, become, and the nation has suffered for it.

The kids who really need to experience what the CCC would have to offer are the well-off suburbanites who've never been more than five feet away from a cellphone, and have been brought up to think everything in life is theirs at the swipe of a plastic card. They're the ones who most need the CCC experience -- to break them out of their insulated world of privilege, to force them to mix with people of all class backgrounds, and to understand that they are, by no means, the center of the universe. Economic class distinctions in America are becoming more and more rigid -- and we need to do something to break them. A mandatory CCC program -- for *all* young people, with no exemptions, no strings that could be pulled by Upper Middle Class Daddy -- would do that.

That "no pulling strings" part is the great "if" in this equation. Having seen how many were pulled during the Vietnam War.......naw, better not say anything more on the subject lest I be accused of making this political.

I like the way you think on this, Lizzie, but I'm not sure that it'll ever fly.

 

[Touchofevil]

I would *not* want to see the CCC become something only working-class and poor kids do just to get a chance at college. That's what the military has, by and large, become, and the nation has suffered for it.

The kids who really need to experience what the CCC would have to offer are the well-off suburbanites who've never been more than five feet away from a cellphone, and have been brought up to think everything in life is theirs at the swipe of a plastic card. They're the ones who most need the CCC experience -- to break them out of their insulated world of privilege, to force them to mix with people of all class backgrounds, and to understand that they are, by no means, the center of the universe. Economic class distinctions in America are becoming more and more rigid -- and we need to do something to break them. A mandatory CCC program -- for *all* young people, with no exemptions, no strings that could be pulled by Upper Middle Class Daddy -- would do that.

I did not mean to imply that it should only be for the working class or poor, I would like it to be a program for all. Serving one's community tends to increase pride and a buying-in to its betterment. Too many of the poor kids in my school district are brought up by parents who foster the belief that they deserve a handout just for breathing and have a right to not work while living on the dime of those who work. Our working class and migrant families tend to realize that nothing is owed to anyone and that you are supposed to earn what you get in life.

 

[sheeplady]

Bureaucrats! The first people I would like to see spend at least a month or two out of the year digging ditches in exchange for their lavish benefits and job security that's practically unheard of in private industry.

It was less the people in the system (other military people) but the red tape.

It was rare that I had someone in the military who could actually register for my class on time. Normally their registration came through and got cleared with the powers that be half way (8 to 9 weeks) into the course. While I was always flexible with my military students, a lot of instructors wouldn't have allowed an unregistered student to sit in their class for half the course and then do the mountain of paperwork to get the student enrolled that late in the semester. Not even beginning to address the stress some of my students had in doing the actual work but not actually knowing if they'd be able to get the credits (if the military approved it).

I won't even touch what happened to some of the Veterans who took my course, as that makes this look like a pleasant dream.

I would *not* want to see the CCC become something only working-class and poor kids do just to get a chance at college. That's what the military has, by and large, become, and the nation has suffered for it.

The kids who really need to experience what the CCC would have to offer are the well-off suburbanites who've never been more than five feet away from a cellphone, and have been brought up to think everything in life is theirs at the swipe of a plastic card. They're the ones who most need the CCC experience -- to break them out of their insulated world of privilege, to force them to mix with people of all class backgrounds, and to understand that they are, by no means, the center of the universe. Economic class distinctions in America are becoming more and more rigid -- and we need to do something to break them. A mandatory CCC program -- for *all* young people, with no exemptions, no strings that could be pulled by Upper Middle Class Daddy -- would do that.

Agreed. The only way out should be military service. Individuals with disabilities could be sent to specially equipped units, with specially trained staff. (Young people who are severely cognitively and/or physically disabled or severely unhealthy would be the only exception. By unhealthy I refer to young people undergoing things like cancer treatment, those with end-stage diseases, the dying, etc.)

I think that this would particularly benefit young people with disabilities, who often find it difficult to find work or basic training because not many people are willing to give them a shot. With experience in the CCC, they could have something to put on a resume, perhaps some basic training in some area, etc. I think it would be a great shot of confidence building too, as most individuals with disabilities want to work. For instance, there could be office jobs, food service, maintenance, etc. that were tailored to match differing ability levels.


--------------------------
Since this is basically becoming a dream, I'd like to add two additional caveats I'd imagine and love to have: every person left the program with a basic fluency level in English and Spanish (given the increasingly bilingual nature of our country) AND fluency in American Sign Language (because I believe ASL should be taught in schools to open up hearing society to the deaf). I think these are perfectly in keeping with the original CCC's focus on literacy.

Also because it's a dream and I can have what I want.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

On the other hand, a lot of these kids are taking "gap years" to loaf around coffee shops pretending to write novels or daydreaming about being in bands. Building roads and chopping wood would be a much, much more productive use of their time.

I might be something of a cynic but I think this lot is lost cause. In theory it sounds great to say bring back the draft to make Junior into a man or put him to work digging ditches to build character, which incidentally, I heartily agree with. However, if you're the foreman of a road crew, is this really the kind of workers you want? Or if you're a combat soldier, would you want these kids, whom you might have to depend on in a life or death situation, in your squad or platoon?

And yes, I realize that under the right motivation some might eventually get with the program but on the other hand I believe there are far too many chronic incorrigibles among this generation for such a CCC type program to work today.

 

[HudsonHawk]

I guess I'll play the other side here...while I recognize the benefits that the military and CCC can offer, I don't agree that military conscription and forced labor camps are a panacea for the "ills of modern society".

 

[dh66]

I guess I'll play the other side here...while I recognize the benefits that the military and CCC can offer, I don't agree that military conscription and forced labor camps are a panacea for the "ills of modern society".

I can agree with this. Compulsory military service is not a cure for $#!tty parenting.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I might be something of a cynic but I think this lot is lost cause. In theory it sounds great to say bring back the draft to make Junior into a man or put him to work digging ditches to build character, which incidentally, I heartily agree with. However, if you're the foreman of a road crew, is this really the kind of workers you want? Or if you're a combat soldier, would you want these kids, whom you might have to depend on in a life or death situation, in your squad or platoon?

And yes, I realize that under the right motivation some might eventually get with the program but on the other hand I believe there are far too many chronic incorrigibles among this generation for such a CCC type program to work today.

I tend to think they're less incorrigibles than they are kids who, for all their bluster about independence, really don't know how to stand on their own two feet. Most of the 18-to-22 year olds I know personally actually *want* someone to come along and tell them what to do because, outside the comfortable environment of a classroom, they're essentially lost. They follow their peers because that's all they know how to do, and the peers they follow follow other peers because that's all *they* know how to do, ad infinitum. Even supposedly-smart kids frig around with drugs and booze and get into trouble not because they want to be rebels, but because "everybody does it" and they've been raised to believe the most important thing in life is to "get along with others," but they don't understand what "getting along with others" actually means.

A structured, disciplined environment where such kids are told that there are things they can do, that they can't do, that they *must* do, and that they *will* do whether or not they "want" to do them would be the best possible medicine. And because they'd all be in it together, kids from every kind of background and environment, they'd be forced to learn what "getting along with others" is really all about.

 

[Big J]

I think that the perceived decline in standards today is just an illusion caused by the fact the we, as adults, now have an awareness of the world/society that we didn't when we were clueless or cosseted kids/teenagers ourselves.

I am certain that standards have always been comparably low, and that a constant proportion of today's irresponsible/clueless kids will grow up to rant about 'the decline of standards' tomorrow.

It's just the nature of the beast.
Nothing to worry about.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

I can agree with this. Compulsory military service is not a cure for $#!tty parenting.

Nor are overreaching laws such as New York's "soda ban" or the bill that recently passed in California requiring airsoft replica guns to be either transparent or brightly colored simply because parents can't be bothered to stress to Junior not to point it at anybody -- especially cops! :eusa_doh:

 

[jamespowers]

As with everything else in the world, people perform the best when they actually WANT to be there. Sticking someone where they don't want to be actually develops grifters who take advantage of every situation to do as little as possible and to screw up the whole works if they can. Yeah, just who we want in the wilitary and other forced conscription services. :doh:

 

[jamespowers]

I think that the perceived decline in standards today is just an illusion caused by the fact the we, as adults, now have an awareness of the world/society that we didn't when we were clueless or cosseted kids/teenagers ourselves.

I am certain that standards have always been comparably low, and that a constant proportion of today's irresponsible/clueless kids will grow up to rant about 'the decline of standards' tomorrow.

It's just the nature of the beast.
Nothing to worry about.

You might think so but the truth is that it is really more of a ratcheting down situation where standards get ratcheted down over time as more and more becomes acceptable. Children raised 100 years ago were subject to a far more structured environment than children are today. Children may have been given more freedom to roam around playing but that was actually a good thing. Today they are held so close that they can barely breathe and made to feel afraid of everything---particularly success. 100 years ago Horatio Alger was the children’s example where anyone can overcome adversity to succeed. Now the standard is not to judge anyone and you don’t have to overcome adversity. We’ll support you from cradle to grave. :doh:
There are also periods where we get down to a certain bottom point and then rebound for a time---such as the aforementioned 1920s. However, even then, the rebound is still not as high a standard as there was previously. As things become more acceptable, more unacceptable things happen.

 

[fashion frank]

" As more things become more acceptable, more unacceptable things happen.."

Boy Mr. Powers you really nailed that one down, that's the problem as you state ," we'll support you from cradle to grave ."

We had it made compared to kids now a days however we worked harder and I mean even like school home work ,kids don't even have it anymore never mind " after school chores " !

All the Best , Fashion Frank

 

[jamespowers]

" As more things become more acceptable, more unacceptable things happen.."

Boy Mr. Powers you really nailed that one down, that's the problem as you state ," we'll support you from cradle to grave ."

We had it made compared to kids now a days however we worked harder and I mean even like school home work ,kids don't even have it anymore never mind " after school chores " !

All the Best , Fashion Frank

Yes but there are still some anachronistic parents like me whose children get all of those things.

 

[LizzieMaine]

As with everything else in the world, people perform the best when they actually WANT to be there. Sticking someone where they don't want to be actually develops grifters who take advantage of every situation to do as little as possible and to screw up the whole works if they can. Yeah, just who we want in the wilitary and other forced conscription services. :doh:

I think the problem is that deep down nobody wants to be anywhere except in their own little bubble of Self. That's what needs to be broken -- the idea that nobody owes any responsibility to anyone outside that bubble.

Nobody *wanted* to be drafted and sent off to fight a world war -- in 1940, draft-age America was largely made up of scrawny, malnourished, undereducated small-town kids who had no interest in getting shot at. But the peacetime 1940-41 draft showed that those who had served in the CCC were healthier, stronger, and had a much easier time adapting to the rigors of military life -- in short, they had learned how to function, physically and mentally, as part of a team instead of just as isolated self-absorbed individuals. In fact, service in the CCC was enough to get a kid corporal's stripes right out of boot camp -- because the program didn't just make men, it made men who understood how to motivate other men.

We desperately need that kind of program now -- something that will give kids motivation beyond simply clicking to the next Tumblr post.

 

[sheeplady]

Something has to be done about the rising costs of college and training. (For instance- most mechanics around here won't hire a person for their shop unless they have a community college degree, which is neither, cheap, easy, or fast to get if you're actually trying to support yourself at the same time.)

We also desperately need more skilled tradespeople.

We still have a large unemployment and underemployment rate, especially of young people.

We have a generation of individuals who are drowning in debt. Programs that forgive debt- such as Teach for America- are being absolutely overrun by the number of applicants.

We have bridges dropping into rivers, failing levees, roads that are like washboards, and public parks and public buildings that are crumbling.

We increasingly are seeing a gap between the wealth of the rich in our society outpacing the opportunities for the middle class, working class, and poor; particularly as youth. This is especially true in regards to educational opportunities.

We have an increasingly adversarial political system in which individuals of the lower classes are being encouraged to infight, sabotage each other, and often vote against their own best interest in favor of party lines.

We have a racist, sexist, and classist society where people increasingly have no idea what it is like outside of their backyard and own life experience. This leads to violence, encourages people to accept the status quo, and limits opportunities. You can't become what you don't see, dream, or believe to be possible. Similarly, the best way to counteract "isms" is to expose individuals to other people.



I see these as much bigger problems than the kids nowadays are trouble makers.


Countries do all sorts of things to promote social welfare, influence the population to take different career avenues, and remodel their landscape and society. While these types of programs are not as common, I don't believe the people here have any idea how much other countries use laws and traditions to balance their labor markets to keep their youth employed and trained.

I don't see this as "forced labor" to whip kids into shape so much as to try to rectify some large (huge) problems we are facing as a society.

Starting a civilian corp of some kind- be it teaching, conservation work, painting buildings, whatever you want- is certainly better than building our military to try and escape our current economic woes.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

What we need is to stop making a college degree a requirement for everything from driving a forklift to being a neurosurgeon. While I can see the need for a degree in the case of the latter, I don't see why the former needs one.

 

[dh66]

What we need is to stop making a college degree a requirement for everything from driving a forklift to being a neurosurgeon. While I can see the need for a degree in the case of the latter, I don't see why the former needs one.

Say it louder V.C.!!!
This expectation of needing to go to school for everything is the biggest load of crap that anyone has come up with. I went to college (b.a. in history and philosophy) but I learned a trade by working in it. Thank goodness I did. I had summer jobs as a plumber's helper, in which I did everything from dig ditches to unload trucks, and often just carried around a plumbers tools for him. Along the way I learned how to braze and weld, read blue prints and lay out work, and operate heavy machinery. I became a journeyman about the time I graduated college, a state certified master plumber a few years later. There is absolutely NO need for a young person to rack up a pile of debt learning how to plumb, heat and cool, electrify, lay brick, work in a kitchen or perform any other number of trades. It is a racket