The general decline in standards today

[V.C. Brunswick]

Also the continued raising of minimum wage has eliminated many entry level jobs (which were never meant to be a career) that it now takes a ten foot leap just to reach the bottom rungs of the ladder.

 

[HeyMoe]

Say it louder V.C.!!!
This expectation of needing to go to school for everything is the biggest load of crap that anyone has come up with. I went to college (b.a. in history and philosophy) but I learned a trade by working in it. Thank goodness I did. I had summer jobs as a plumber's helper, in which I did everything from dig ditches to unload trucks, and often just carried around a plumbers tools for him. Along the way I learned how to braze and weld, read blue prints and lay out work, and operate heavy machinery. I became a journeyman about the time I graduated college, a state certified master plumber a few years later. There is absolutely NO need for a young person to rack up a pile of debt learning how to plumb, heat and cool, electrify, lay brick, work in a kitchen or perform any other number of trades. It is a racket

I concur.

I had a lengthy discussion with my current boss who had developed a new position with in our company. The new position was as team leaders of a 5 person mental health recovery team to work in our mental health facility. In order to be considered you needed to have a bachelors degree. My argument was that while I didn't have a degree, I did spend 12 years in the worlds largest leadership development corporation learning to lead people: The US Military. I remember as a kid seeing want ads that stated military experience would be accepted, no you rarely see that.

My argument didn't get me considered for a team leader position. In fact I didn't want it - I had just come from a job where I was in charge of security at a local college and didn't want the responsibility. I did not want folks excluded because they did not go to college, instead choosing to serve our country. Much like Captain Willard in Apocalypse Now while I did not want a promotion to team leader, for my sins they gave me one...five actually for the next two years into Senior Management of the corporation. Well for me sins and a ton of hard work (also learned from my time in the Army). I am currently the only senior management team leader with no college education, but in my job I am the one that is consulted for everything around safety, licensing regulations etc. do I wish I had a degree? Not really, I wish I was able to complete my career in the Army and I am thankful that my boss listened to me and now looks at things from a different preservative and hires on fit for the job instead of a blanked education requirement. It also helps that I love my job, believe that the mission comes first and am willing to do anything from entry level work to anything that needs to get done.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

In 1957 my Dad who had no college degree started working at Hughes Aircraft in what would today be called the IT Department. When he retired thirty years later that same job required a degree in computer science. And now it probably requires a Masters degree.

 

[ChiTownScion]

And a high paying job in a skilled trade is no panacea, either.

I was speaking to a cousin of mine a few weekends ago. He runs a few job sites and has a number of young apprentices under him who are "on the money:" earning journeyman's wages which in his trade plays out to $60. an hour in his trade. And these "kids" who are grossing $2400/ week are spending it as fast as they make it. No financial planning, no investments, rarely even a savings account. A paycheck is just a passport to a new round of pricy toys. Where will they be when the pendulum swings, when layoffs take place, and they're sitting around collecting an unemployment check?

And the kids who go into the military? I've known career NCO's who have picked up masters degrees in engineering part time, but sad to say, the greater percentage military people I know (at least the ones who went enlisted rather than as commissioned officers) now are not taking full advantage in taking courses while they're active. The problem is that the longer a person is away from a classroom, the less self confidence they have regarding furthering their education.

Instead of merely emphasizing physical labor, a proposed CCC in this day and age might do well to impart lifetime study skills. After all, if there is anything certain about the future, it is that we will all have to undergo retraining as occupational demands change.

 

[jamespowers]

I think the problem is that deep down nobody wants to be anywhere except in their own little bubble of Self. That's what needs to be broken -- the idea that nobody owes any responsibility to anyone outside that bubble.

Nobody *wanted* to be drafted and sent off to fight a world war -- in 1940, draft-age America was largely made up of scrawny, malnourished, undereducated small-town kids who had no interest in getting shot at. But the peacetime 1940-41 draft showed that those who had served in the CCC were healthier, stronger, and had a much easier time adapting to the rigors of military life -- in short, they had learned how to function, physically and mentally, as part of a team instead of just as isolated self-absorbed individuals. In fact, service in the CCC was enough to get a kid corporal's stripes right out of boot camp -- because the program didn't just make men, it made men who understood how to motivate other men.

We desperately need that kind of program now -- something that will give kids motivation beyond simply clicking to the next Tumblr post.

After the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, a LOT of young kids WANTED to go to war and get revenge for that bombing. They lined up around the blocks in cities everywhere that had draft boards. Some lied about their age to even get a shot at enlisting. Those were the people we wanted. Those are the people we have in the military now. Those are the people we want now. They know what they are getting into not being shoved in head first like it or not.

 

[jamespowers]

Say it louder V.C.!!!
This expectation of needing to go to school for everything is the biggest load of crap that anyone has come up with. I went to college (b.a. in history and philosophy) but I learned a trade by working in it. Thank goodness I did. I had summer jobs as a plumber's helper, in which I did everything from dig ditches to unload trucks, and often just carried around a plumbers tools for him. Along the way I learned how to braze and weld, read blue prints and lay out work, and operate heavy machinery. I became a journeyman about the time I graduated college, a state certified master plumber a few years later. There is absolutely NO need for a young person to rack up a pile of debt learning how to plumb, heat and cool, electrify, lay brick, work in a kitchen or perform any other number of trades. It is a racket

Agreed! It is a racket that has only interest in perpetuating itself------not necessarily making education better, cheaper or last a shorter time.

 

[jamespowers]

In 1957 my Dad who had no college degree started working at Hughes Aircraft in what would today be called the IT Department. When he retired thirty years later that same job required a degree in computer science. And now it probably requires a Masters degree.

When my father retired, they had to hire three people to do his job. Three college educated people to do a job that the previous ONE person did with a high school diploma. College now has become equivalent to the previous high school diploma---which if one looks at your regular school education these days, makes sense. :doh: If you want to change something then you need to change the way schools educate children for free because it isn’t worth even that in many areas.

 

[2jakes]

After the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, a LOT of young kids WANTED to go to war and get revenge for that bombing. They lined up around the blocks in cities everywhere that had draft boards. Some lied about their age to even get a shot at enlisting. Those were the people we wanted. Those are the people we have in the military now. Those are the people we want now. They know what they are getting into not being shoved in head first like it or not.

My mother told me recently about my father ( past away last Feb) that he was 19 when he signed up.
Joined the Army on December 1941. He came back after the war a changed person in some ways.

"We were so young & had no concept of war at all"...my dad would often say to me.
Sometimes my dad would have depressions which I didn't understand .

My dad survived the war with no physical injuries. But the mental aspect took it's toll on him later in
life.

I was in Vietnam...& now I understand.
I t might be difficult for those of you who have never had this experience to fully understand this.

 

[jamespowers]

My mother told me recently about my father ( past away last Feb) that he was 19 when he signed up.
Joined the Army on December 1941. He came back after the war a changed person in some ways.

"We were so young & had no concept of war at all"...my dad would often say to me.
Sometimes my dad would have depressions which I didn't understand .

My dad survived the war with no physical injuries. But the mental aspect took it's toll on him later in
life.

I was in Vietnam...& now I understand.
I t might be difficult for those of you who have never had this experience to fully understand this.

Did you volunteer?

 

[2jakes]

Did you volunteer?

Yes .

I was 19 .

 

[jamespowers]

Yes .

I was 19 .

Good! Then you were like my father in Korea. Those are the people we want in the service. He was twenty.

 

[2jakes]

Good! Then you were like my father in Korea. Those are the people we want in the service. He was twenty.

Korea...1953 .
I remember my cousin packing his Army duffel bag getting ready to leave.

I recall the smell of the Army . Some of you would understand about the certain
odor of Army gear & equipment .

 

[vintageTink]

Yes .

I was 19 .

My uncle did two tours in Vietnam but he volunteered for at least one. He was young but definitely brave.

 

[jamespowers]

My uncle did two tours in Vietnam but he volunteered for at least one. He was young but definitely brave.

Another Good man!

 

[Zombie_61]

...Sticking someone where they don't want to be actually develops grifters who take advantage of every situation to do as little as possible and to screw up the whole works if they can...

Sounds like at least half of the people I've worked with over the last 36 years.

 

[Big J]

You might think so but the truth is that it is really more of a ratcheting down situation where standards get ratcheted down over time as more and more becomes acceptable. Children raised 100 years ago were subject to a far more structured environment than children are today. Children may have been given more freedom to roam around playing but that was actually a good thing. Today they are held so close that they can barely breathe and made to feel afraid of everything---particularly success. 100 years ago Horatio Alger was the children’s example where anyone can overcome adversity to succeed. Now the standard is not to judge anyone and you don’t have to overcome adversity. We’ll support you from cradle to grave. :doh:
There are also periods where we get down to a certain bottom point and then rebound for a time---such as the aforementioned 1920s. However, even then, the rebound is still not as high a standard as there was previously. As things become more acceptable, more unacceptable things happen.

I'm afraid that I'm going to make myself unpopular by disagreeing.
The last 100 years isn't much of a timescale to work with, IMHO. Also, it's still within living memory, and thus subjected to 'rose tinted glasses' effect.
If we look at (for example) european cultures, and the wealth of written material left since the Roman empire, then there is no evidence to suggest that standards are declining. Societies have always had malcontents and criminals. Roman writers bemoaned the 'lack of morals of todays youth' in exactly the same way posters here are doing, and also suggested military service as a remedy. 'There's a lot of ruin in an empire' (can't place that roman era quote right now).

I think that we suffer from the illusion that we are supposed to be, somehow, better people than previous generations, when in fact, human nature has and will never change. Combined with a mass 24 hour media that rams certain crimes down our throats that would never have been reported 100 years ago, or would not have been classified as criminal 100 years ago. Domestic violence, and rape being cases in point; most women would have been mortified at the idea of going to the police to report such a crime 100 years ago, since the police (and society) would have shamed and blamed the victim. Modern standards of women's rights, and forensic science mean that these crimes are more likely to be reported, investigated, and end in prosecution these days. Therefore, we may feel that these crimes are increasing. They most likely are not- they are just being reported more often (just as an example).

 

[Stearmen]

Another Good man!

Don't forget, the majority of WWII Army personnel were drafted. That's because, after January 1943 no one who was eligible to be drafted could enlist! The draft was just going so smoothly.

 

[HudsonHawk]

I don't see this as "forced labor" to whip kids into shape so much as to try to rectify some large (huge) problems we are facing as a society.

If it is a requirement, presumably at the consequence of some sort of punishment, I'm not how you can see it as anything else.

I'm just not that keen on the government "whipping"'any ideology into people, whether I happen to agree with it or not b

 

[Seb Lucas]

I'm afraid that I'm going to make myself unpopular by disagreeing.
The last 100 years isn't much of a timescale to work with, IMHO. Also, it's still within living memory, and thus subjected to 'rose tinted glasses' effect.
If we look at (for example) european cultures, and the wealth of written material left since the Roman empire, then there is no evidence to suggest that standards are declining. Societies have always had malcontents and criminals. Roman writers bemoaned the 'lack of morals of todays youth' in exactly the same way posters here are doing, and also suggested military service as a remedy. 'There's a lot of ruin in an empire' (can't place that roman era quote right now).

I think that we suffer from the illusion that we are supposed to be, somehow, better people than previous generations, when in fact, human nature has and will never change. Combined with a mass 24 hour media that rams certain crimes down our throats that would never have been reported 100 years ago, or would not have been classified as criminal 100 years ago. Domestic violence, and rape being cases in point; most women would have been mortified at the idea of going to the police to report such a crime 100 years ago, since the police (and society) would have shamed and blamed the victim. Modern standards of women's rights, and forensic science mean that these crimes are more likely to be reported, investigated, and end in prosecution these days. Therefore, we may feel that these crimes are increasing. They most likely are not- they are just being reported more often (just as an example).

I have to agree 100%. I've been hearing how standards have dropped for 40 years, my father remembers people saying this in 1937 - with much more reason given he was in Europe. I personally feel my country is better and worse than it was 40 years ago. Depends on what I'm thinking of.

 

[Edward]

I have to agree 100%. I've been hearing how standards have dropped for 40 years, my father remembers people saying this in 1937 - with much more reason given he was in Europe. I personally feel my country is better and worse than it was 40 years ago. Depends on what I'm thinking of.

That's a bingo!

(That is how you say it, right?)