The general decline in standards today

[C-dot]

Whenever there is a conflict, the draft is discussed. It is overall very unpopular, for many different reasons. During Vietnam, many "draft dodgers"- people who had been called via the lottery- went to Canada. Until the 1990s, those people faced jail if they re-entered the US. I believe President Clinton provided those individuals with amnesty.

Thank-you very much for explaining that to me. Canada has been "the great escape" for many groups of people throughout the years lol

Several years ago a Congressman who was opposed to the war in Iraq, strangely enough, sponsored a bill reinstating the draft which would have made women subject to the draft AND would have extended the draft age to 42! His intent was to generate more opposition to the war by reintroducing the draft just like it did during the Vietnam war. Not surprisingly the bill was voted down. He even voted against his own bill!

That's a fascinating story! I suppose he would have to vote against his own bill to save face.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

During Vietnam, many "draft dodgers"- people who had been called via the lottery- went to Canada.

Which is ironic because in 1939-40 quite a few Americans* went to Canada so that they could fight.

*which probably included some of the fathers of those who went to Canada to avoid the draft a generation later.

 

[C-dot]

Which is ironic because in 1939-40 quite a few Americans* went to Canada so that they could fight.

*which probably included some of the fathers of those who went to Canada to avoid the draft a generation later.

This is true. Those who wanted to fight as soon as the war started came here.

 

[TidiousTed]

Whenever there is a conflict, the draft is discussed. It is overall very unpopular, for many different reasons. During Vietnam, many "draft dodgers"- people who had been called via the lottery- went to Canada. Until the 1990s, those people faced jail if they re-entered the US. I believe President Clinton provided those individuals with amnesty.

Many ended up in Scandinavia as well even though we have exchange agreements with the US when it comes to criminals. But refusing to do military service is not a crime in Scandinavia even thought we all have drafted armies.

 

[Undertow]

...A few years back, I remember my mother's friend in California saying to her that if a draft was instituted - and there was danger there would be - she wanted to send her then 18-year old son up to us in Canada. I think this was during Iraq...

At the outset of the Iraq war, there were some grumblings from various political pundits that a draft could be considered, as well as nuclear "retaliation". There was also a particular politician who felt pushing through a draft bill would stop the war because average American families would suddenly realize the immediacy of our foreign campaigns. Although the politician drafted the bill, I'm certain it did not even make it on the floor for debate.

There was also very much discussion post-9/11 about a possible draft because everyone knew war was imminent.

And that's really as far as I'm comfortable taking this discussion without treading into politics.

 

[PrettySquareGal]

There has been a decline in standards in the military due to a largely overweight population that is less educated. From what I've read, the military has had to issue many waivers....

 

[scooter]

I have mixed emotions on the subject of women serving alongside men. As the father of two daughters, I tried to never limit their expectations or opportunities based on their sex, I want them to have every opportunity available to their male counterparts. I served in the Marines and I saw women serve there, and they served honorably. I served in Israel and saw their woman walking about the city in fatigues carrying automatic weapons. From what I saw of them, one would be wise not to tangle with them.

If we were to be honest, for many years in the Olympics, in wrestling, in boxing, in space, as pilots, and other avenues; women were saddled with artificial restrictions because MEN decided they were too frail to compete. When these restrictions were lifted, women were able to demonstrate they were not only able to compete, but to excel. My general thought is that women will do well in many avenues that we currently question, if only given the chance. If we were Saudi, women wouldn't even be allowed to drive, because they are not considered capable. Could you imagine a USA where women were considered incapable of operating a motor vehicle?

 

[rue]

There has been a decline in standards in the military due to a largely overweight population that is less educated. From what I've read, the military has had to issue many waivers....

About 50% depending on the area.
75% get turned away because they are severely overweight, didn't graduate from a regular school (home schooled kids can't get in), didn't graduate at all (right now you can't get in with a GED) or they can't pass the academic test to get in.

 

[scooter]

As an afterthought, anyone here care to climb into the ring with Laila Ali, or walk out onto the mat with the female judo, karate, or wrestling champions? Talk to any of them, or those they competed against about the capabilities of women!

 

[rue]

I have mixed emotions on the subject of women serving alongside men. As the father of two daughters, I tried to never limit their expectations or opportunities based on their sex, I want them to have every opportunity available to their male counterparts. I served in the Marines and I saw women serve there, and they served honorably. I served in Israel and saw their woman walking about the city in fatigues carrying automatic weapons. From what I saw of them, one would be wise not to tangle with them.

If we were to be honest, for many years in the Olympics, in wrestling, in boxing, in space, as pilots, and other avenues; women were saddled with artificial restrictions because MEN decided they were too frail to compete. When these restrictions were lifted, women were able to demonstrate they were not only able to compete, but to excel. My general thought is that women will do well in many avenues that we currently question, if only given the chance. If we were Saudi, women wouldn't even be allowed to drive, because they are not considered capable. Could you imagine a USA where women were considered incapable of operating a motor vehicle?

First..... thank you for your service

Second..... To me it's different since women don't box, etc against men, they box other women. In war it would be women fighting men.

 

[C-dot]

To me it's different since women don't box, etc against men, they box other women. In war it would be women fighting men.

I've thought about this, but do you think it becomes more equal with the use of weaponry? Although people come in all shapes in sizes, women are generally built very differently than men in terms of muscle mass, dexterity, etc. but anyone can be trained to use a gun.

 

[rue]

I've thought about this, but do you think it becomes more equal with the use of weaponry? Although people come in all shapes in sizes, women are generally built very differently than men in terms of muscle mass, dexterity, etc. but anyone can be trained to use a gun.

It's not that women can't use a gun (I can) or that they're not capable enough to fight.... part of the problem is that men are natural protectors of women. My husband (who's been overseas seven times) and several others that have served have told me that women are in the way more than a help over there, because of that. Besides that, I still say that no matter how tough a woman is, they will never be strong enough to be a Navy Seal, for example.

 

[PoohBang]

If a woman volunteers to join, she should be given every opportunity to fight if she wants to.

Some of this talk is sounding like another debate the army's had in the past about other groups. They got past that, and now it's women. And in 20 years when women are fight just like men, it'll be some another group....

 

[C-dot]

It's not that women can't use a gun (I can) or that they're not capable enough to fight.... part of the problem is that men are natural protectors of women. My husband (who's been overseas seven times) and several others that have served have told me that women are in the way more than a help over there, because of that. Besides that, I still say that no matter how tough a woman is, they will never be strong enough to be a Navy Seal, for example.

That's a good point - I believe it's part of a man's psychological make-up. I can imagine it would be heightened in combat, especially since military men are trained to protect people, and in my experience, are very protective of their female family members and wives/girlfriends.

 

[Pompidou]

One decade, society discovered that women were smart enough to be worth sending to school, another decade, to vote. Another decade, that they were strong enough to work outside the house. Then that they were capable enough to serve in the military. What already existing equality will we discover down the line? I personally would hate to have society telling me I'm not good enough. We've been doing it since time began, and somehow, it's not only excused, but welcomed as time honored tradition.

We once tried to stave off desegregated armed services, because what would the white soldiers think? Would it diminish their effectiveness? They got over it. We're having the same debate now with sexual orientation in the armed services. I imagine we'll have the same debate when women get full equality in the military sometime down the line. I guess the takeaway message is, we just love to hold people back. If I walked around saying, "Step aside, honey. Let me handle that. That's a man's job." I'd never heal the resulting, and warranted, broken nose. But somehow, it's okay for society to say it. The difference between, "You can't serve on the front because you're weak, because you're a woman" and "Get back in the kitchen" is only one of degrees and social acceptance. In a decade or so, it'll seem just as dated.

 

[rue]

I believe what I do, because I know first hand stories of what its like and I'll leave it at that.

On this site, there are those that like/love the old ways of the Golden Era and that's what brought us here and then there are those that just like certain aspects like the clothes or the hats or the hair. I sometimes forget that and I apologize for getting into a non-winning debate unintentionally.

 

[1961MJS]

Hi

Women will be allowed in combat when (and if I guess) we get into a war where we're so screwed that we have to have everyone on the front lines like the Russians in WW2, and the Israelis in 1967. I'm sure that there are other examples. Men will be too busy not getting killed to bother protecting them.

Just my $0.02

 

[C-dot]

The difference between, "You can't serve on the front because you're weak, because you're a woman" and "Get back in the kitchen" is only one of degrees and social acceptance.

I agree with you, but that isn't what anyone was trying to say. These observations have come from men formerly in the service and from military wives and girlfriends (Rue and myself, respectively) who have seen or heard of it firsthand. The idea is one thing, but the execution is different, and in order to find out about that you must narrow your focus to those who are right there.

 

[LizzieMaine]

You know, it's a funny thing. Women have always been killed in wars, back to the very beginning of history, and more so now than ever. Bombs don't discriminate on the basis of sex. That said, I think men in general are chemically and biologically more suited to the brute violence of warfare than women -- testosterone is a very aggression-producing substance, no matter how many layers of finely-tailored high-armholed worsted wool you dress it up in, and in wartime, that's what comes to the surface. Women can be trained to kill, and to kill very effectively, but it comes more naturally to men. And that's what war is all about -- anything more than that is ideology.

 

[PrettySquareGal]

I think men in general are chemically and biologically more suited to the brute violence of warfare than women

I've always thought women are too civilized and evolved to resort to brute force.