The general decline in standards today

[scooter]

As I said early in my first post, I have mixed emotions on this issue. I don't feel it's my place to decide what others should or should not do with their lives. I would not want my daughters constrained by the doggerel of others less enlightened, but then again I would want to see them shot and killed, or paraded around by the Taliban either. All that being said, I would not want my sons, if I had any, to fall victim to these things either.

I say, they are big girls, let them make their own decisions. This notion of being instinctively protective of them doesn't hold much water, as most of the Marines I knew would run into a burning building to save ANY of their comrades. It is what made us a premier and respected service, our esprit de corps, and it wouldn't matter much if it was man or woman. All they ask is the same in return and the respect of their peers.

 

[LizzieMaine]

It's a really interesting phenomenon -- I remember hearing an interview on the radio with a person who had gone thru a sex change from female to male, describing the way his mind changed once he started injecting testosterone, and how he felt like a caged animal sometimes, pacing back and forth, wanting to attack something for no good reason, having random thoughts about beating the snot out of the guy sitting next to him on the bus just for the hell of it. Think of how irrational and violent adolescent boys can get when they go thru puberty -- it's the same deal. I'm convinced that male and female minds truly do process the world differently, and it's the chemistry that does it. And that sort of thing's got to make a difference on the battlefield.

 

[scooter]

For what it's worth, Lizzie, I agree that we process things VERY differently. Another pet theory of mine, is that humans are really just very sophisticated animals. Cultured, educated, compassionate perhaps, but animals nonetheless; and I believe this accounts for many of our actions. Nearly any human trait can be found in animals of one size or shape, and we aren't a lot different than they, we just have a thin veneer of sophistication that some of them lack. And, some of us have a thinner veneer then others! I actually know animals that I prefer over many humans.

 

[Pompidou]

The best course of action is to have one gender neutral set of standards for being accepted into combat positions - be it army infantry, marines or navy seals - any of them. Be blind to gender. Being equal isn't about numbers. There shouldn't be quotas on the front lines about having X amount of Y minority represented. Take them all blindly. If being a SEAL requires X, Y and Z, don't let women in with A, B and C - not only would it actually hurt effectiveness, but it'd be condescending to the women and they'd never truly be treated as equals. Instead, be cold and impartial, and if that means only one woman serves on the team, well, that's one woman who's earned the right to every duty and perk of her peers.

It's all about equality - both in the effort required to get there, and in the right to try. I don't believe the armed forces should be 50/50. I believe anybody that's good enough, should be allowed to. The establishment is welcome to define good enough as they see fit. So long as "good enough" is by the numbers, and not affected by whatever stigmas other teammates might have, I'd be fine with 0, 1, or a thousand plus women serving on the front lines. If the only thing holding a candidate back is the mindset of her potential peers, than the onus is on the peers to join the civilized world.

 

[sheeplady]

I don't know if we could make the assumption that everybody supported an all-male military or only men on the front lines or in positions of fighting during the golden age. Today's ideas we think are so "innovative" aren't always new.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

That's a good discription..'cold and impartial'. That's what I fear we may be left with one day..concerning more than just the military...but then 'it's all about equality' which must certainly hold the most importance.

 

[rue]

I agree with you, but that isn't what anyone was trying to say. These observations have come from men formerly in the service and from military wives and girlfriends (Rue and myself, respectively) who have seen or heard of it firsthand. The idea is one thing, but the execution is different, and in order to find out about that you must narrow your focus to those who are right there.

Thank you C-dot

You know, it's a funny thing. Women have always been killed in wars, back to the very beginning of history, and more so now than ever. Bombs don't discriminate on the basis of sex. That said, I think men in general are chemically and biologically more suited to the brute violence of warfare than women -- testosterone is a very aggression-producing substance, no matter how many layers of finely-tailored high-armholed worsted wool you dress it up in, and in wartime, that's what comes to the surface. Women can be trained to kill, and to kill very effectively, but it comes more naturally to men. And that's what war is all about -- anything more than that is ideology.

Nicely said Lizzie!

That's a good discription..'cold and impartial'. That's what I fear we may be left with one day..concerning more than just the military...but then 'it's all about equality' which must certainly hold the most importance.

I smell sarcasm HD

 

[Pompidou]

That's a good discription..'cold and impartial'. That's what I fear we may be left with one day..concerning more than just the military...but then 'it's all about equality' which must certainly hold the most importance.

It's always the people who can already do everything that fear equality. Whites feared blacks in the military. Straights fear gays in the military. Men fear women in the military. Equality has to hold the most importance, otherwise, I fear, you wouldn't be alone in wanting to use the status quot to hold people down.

 

[rue]

Okay Freud... I'll bite.... Why do I not want women in combat (I never said the military)..... I'm a woman [huh]

 

[Pompidou]

I believe what I do, because I know first hand stories of what its like and I'll leave it at that.

On this site, there are those that like/love the old ways of the Golden Era and that's what brought us here and then there are those that just like certain aspects like the clothes or the hats or the hair. I sometimes forget that and I apologize for getting into a non-winning debate unintentionally.

You already answered your own question. Fortunately, having the right to fight in combat doesn't mean having the obligation to. Sort of like gay marriage - it's not like legalizing it will force a straight guy to marry a gay guy. I would be against forcing you into front lines combat. It's one thing to say I'd never shop at Walmart. It's another thing to say not only will I never shop at Walmart, but I don't want to be allowed into a store, and it's another thing further to say, and not only that, but nobody like me should be allowed to step foot in a Walmart either, because it's not something I'd want to do. This isn't about legislating that Rue has to grab an M16 and start taking headshots. It's for allowing all the other women who might want to but can't a fair chance.

 

[rue]

You and I are two very different creatures with very different beliefs Pompidou. You will never convince me and I will never convince you [huh]

 

[HoosierDaddy]

I smell sarcasm HD

I've seen the loss of romance replaced with 'I don't need you to hold a door for me' attitude! Next on the agenda seems...'I don't need you to protect me'..I am more than capable. Put those outdated feelings of a man toward a woman..woman toward a man out of your head...out of your senses. If a woman is hurt..'buck up and take it like a man'! If little Mary falls down and cries..."Quit crying and being so emotional like your Daddy'! It's becoming a topsy turvy world!....maybe a reversal of sorts rather than so equal. Then us men will need to march to regain a foothold...if we can find the guts again. lol

 

[Pompidou]

You and I are two very different creatures with very different beliefs Pompidou. You will never convince me and I will never convince you [huh]

And that's cool though. I don't want to change you. I don't debate people I don't respect. I just like taking the chance to flesh out my own thoughts, and see if I missed anything.

 

[PoohBang]

You and I are two very different creatures with very different beliefs Pompidou. You will never convince me and I will never convince you [huh]

What a lovely reply. It'd be nice to get that once in a while instead of the usual unrefined banter that's thrown around.

 

[Lincsong]

I've seen the loss of romance replaced with 'I don't need you to hold a door for me' attitude! Next on the agenda seems...'I don't need you to protect me'..I am more than capable. Put those outdated feelings of a man toward a woman..woman toward a man out of your head...out of your senses. If a woman is hurt..'buck up and take it like a man'! If little Mary falls down and cries..."Quit crying and being so emotional like your Daddy'! It's becoming a topsy turvy world!....maybe a reversal of sorts rather than so equal. Then us men will need to march to regain a foothold...if we can find the guts again. lol

Exactly

 

[rue]

I've seen the loss of romance replaced with 'I don't need you to hold a door for me' attitude! Next on the agenda seems...'I don't need you to protect me'..I am more than capable. Put those outdated feelings of a man toward a woman..woman toward a man out of your head...out of your senses. If a woman is hurt..'buck up and take it like a man'! If little Mary falls down and cries..."Quit crying and being so emotional like your Daddy'! It's becoming a topsy turvy world!....maybe a reversal of sorts rather than so equal. Then us men will need to march to regain a foothold...if we can find the guts again. lol

It's not that I can't take care of myself, but it's nice to know I don't have to. I lived for 6 years without a husband (divorced and remarried) and I was fine and I would be fine again tomorrow without one if it happens, but it was a relief not to have to deal with everything that a man normally does. I'm a relic, because I believe in gender roles [huh]

And that's cool though. I don't want to change you. I don't debate people I don't respect. I just like taking the chance to flesh out my own thoughts, and see if I missed anything.

I'll take that as a compliment .... thank you

What a lovely reply. It'd be nice to get that once in a while instead of the usual unrefined banter that's thrown around.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

What a lovely reply. It'd be nice to get that once in a while instead of the usual unrefined banter that's thrown around.

Absolutely...Although it may take practice. A new direction might refine the crude into a whole new mood..! I'm cheering for ya...:cheer2::thumb:

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

I've thought about this, but do you think it becomes more equal with the use of weaponry? Although people come in all shapes in sizes, women are generally built very differently than men in terms of muscle mass, dexterity, etc. but anyone can be trained to use a gun.

I totally agree. One of the key physical differences between men and women is upper body strength. I would think that such a difference might be very critical if one of your squaddies who might be 6'2" and 300 lbs is hit in a firefight and somebody has to carry or drag him to safety. Or even in civilian life when a firefighter (who, like the soldier, is also loaded down with gear) has to carry an injured or unconscious person out of a burning building. And as C-dot has pointed out, people come in all shapes and sizes.

 

[PoohBang]

Absolutely...Although it may take practice. A new direction might refine the crude into a whole new mood..! I'm cheering for ya...:cheer2::thumb:

Thanks, and here I thought you didn't like me by all that other mean stuff you said.

 

[Pompidou]

Thanks, and here I thought you didn't like me by all that other mean stuff you said.

Sometimes, the best thing to say is nothing - you've got a good swing of the pendulum going. Don't ruin it.