The general decline in standards today

[LizzieMaine]

I respect your opinion, but I could not disagree more. Leadership, by it's very nature, starts at the top. When you cannot trust your leaders, people start to believe they are left to their own devices and take whatever measures they can to insulate themselves form harm. Our leaders have proven time and again they are corrupt and cannot be depended upon to do what is right, that they are for sale to the highest bidder. They are what has led us to the morass we currently inhabit.

Well, I submit that if this is the case, the people themselves are to blame -- we elect leaders who represent, whether we want to admit it or not, the values we ourselves hold. If we were a culture that *truly* valued honesty, altruism, honor, and the well-being of our fellow man above all else, we'd produce leaders who reflected those values, and we *wouldn't* be swayed and manipulated by the arguments of those who tried to undermine those values. On the other hand, if we're a culture that puts its highest value on ruthlessness, selfishness, and greed -- well, that's the type of leadership we're going to produce. A good tree cannot produce rotten fruit, and a rotten tree cannot produce good fruit.

 

[SGT Rocket]

Thanks Scooter!!!

 

[scooter]

I want to publicly state, I really enjoy intelligent discourse, whether I agree with the other party or not. You are obviously intelligent and articulate, and I salute you. I will say this, and I do so without malice or rancor, I think your argument is simplistic and unrealistic. I say this because as I stated before, we cannot elect any official based on his beliefs, because they ALL tell us only what they want us to hear. We simply don't know what they think because they are "artful dodgers", they don't want us to know. If we knew they would be, or had been, sending photos via the internet, or that they had been accepting bribes, that they did or didn't believe in abortion, unions, the military, or the space program; it would be easy to elect good people. We can't because they go to extraordinary lengths to persuade us they are something they are not. Our leaders have been videotaped advocating one position for one crowd, then advocating the complete opposite for another group. To paraphrase an old saying in North Carolina, "You can tell the difference between a politician and a dog lying in the road, cause there'll be skid marks in front of the dog!"

 

[MikeBravo]

I want to share with you a humorous story. As far as I know, this is true, or at least I was led to believe it was. A citizen was trying to explain the concept of daylight savings time to an old American Indian. After several attempts to impress the logic of DST on him, the old Indian slowly shook his head, looked at the man attempting to explain and said, "Only a white man would cut a foot off the end of a blanket, sew it on the top, and think he had a longer blanket!"

Perhaps the moral of this story is, often we're not as smart as we think we are, as a society. Then again, perhaps it is that we are our own worst enemy!

So, he did understand

 

[Tomasso]

So, he did understand

About as much as the buffalo......

 

[sheeplady]

The idea that in a representative democracy anybody can get elected, anyone can become the president, is a lie.

Elections are highly engineered events, influenced by those that have power (including but not exclusively political parties) who control the money, the image, and who filters to the top as politicians. The politicans are as manufactured as the most adulterated product one can find in a grocery store. Nobody makes it close to getting elected without having passed muster. And if the person fails to pass muster or continues to curry favor, they will be dropped like a hot potato fresh out of the fire.

A while ago I was quite active in politics as a volunteer, I speak from experience. And in my experience, at the state and national level, politicians are manufactured products. Voters don't control the final outcome, because we don't really control the choices going into the election. We only pick among the limited number of people who have been chosen, promoted, rehabbed, and presented to us on a platter.

 

[MikeBravo]

The idea that in a representative democracy anybody can get elected, anyone can become the president, is a lie.

Elections are highly engineered events, influenced by those that have power (including but not exclusively political parties) who control the money, the image, and who filters to the top as politicians. The politicans are as manufactured as the most adulterated product one can find in a grocery store. Nobody makes it close to getting elected without having passed muster. And if the person fails to pass muster or continues to curry favor, they will be dropped like a hot potato fresh out of the fire.

A while ago I was quite active in politics as a volunteer, I speak from experience. And in my experience, at the state and national level, politicians are manufactured products. Voters don't control the final outcome, because we don't really control the choices going into the election. We only pick among the limited number of people who have been chosen, promoted, rehabbed, and presented to us on a platter.

You just defined the word "democracy"!

 

[Miss Moonlight]

So... politics isn't a banned subject?

I want to mention one thing that is definitely in decline as a result of modern times. I'm sure everyone can agree that civility and common courtesy are easier to avoid now with the Internet as a major means of communication. People defriend on social networks instead of talking with someone about a problem. It's cowardly. Worse, I've noticed that the same people who have complained about it being done to them have gone on to do it to others.

I'm going to be very, very sure that I teach my daughter to communicate in person well. I will not have her grow up unable to recognize facial expressions* and then turn into someone who breaks up a friendship by defriending or texting. I won't raise a coward.


*if I can find the article I read some time ago about how many children who spend a lot of time online and texting were tested and found unable to recognize what a basic facial expression was emoting, I will return and edit it in.

 

[Puzzicato]

I'm going to be very, very sure that I teach my daughter to communicate in person well. I will not have her grow up unable to recognize facial expressions* and then turn into someone who breaks up a friendship by defriending or texting. I won't raise a coward.

*if I can find the article I read some time ago about how many children who spend a lot of time online and texting were tested and found unable to recognize what a basic facial expression was emoting, I will return and edit it in.

I hope you can find it, that sounds fascinating. I remember reading an article talking about developing computer programs to help autistic children learn to recognise facial expressions - it sounds like computers may also be responsible for producing the same effect!

 

[LizzieMaine]

I want to publicly state, I really enjoy intelligent discourse, whether I agree with the other party or not. You are obviously intelligent and articulate, and I salute you. I will say this, and I do so without malice or rancor, I think your argument is simplistic and unrealistic. I say this because as I stated before, we cannot elect any official based on his beliefs, because they ALL tell us only what they want us to hear. We simply don't know what they think because they are "artful dodgers", they don't want us to know. If we knew they would be, or had been, sending photos via the internet, or that they had been accepting bribes, that they did or didn't believe in abortion, unions, the military, or the space program; it would be easy to elect good people. We can't because they go to extraordinary lengths to persuade us they are something they are not. Our leaders have been videotaped advocating one position for one crowd, then advocating the complete opposite for another group. To paraphrase an old saying in North Carolina, "You can tell the difference between a politician and a dog lying in the road, cause there'll be skid marks in front of the dog!"

I think you're missing my point -- what I'm saying is that it's impossible for a culture that's corrupt to its core to produce anything but corruption. I've no doubt such things happen as you describe -- I was a reporter long enough to be aware of those things and a lot worse. *But the people who do such things didn't appear out of a vacuum.*

What culture, what society produced them? Isn't *that* where the true blame should be placed? That's where I place it. A society that exalts "every man for himself," "get it while you can," and "look out for Number One" as its defining values shouldn't be surprised when its leaders epitomize those attitudes.

 

[MikeBravo]

I am not a Bartender or anything, however I feel this thread has passed it's "use by" date. It has become political. And yes, I have been part of that commentary too. The standards of today don't have anything to do with the golden era, there are other online forums for that stuff

Can we put it to sleep? Please?

 

[scooter]

Mike, forgive me, but I don't think that's necessary. The subject matter here is intrinsic to the state of affairs in our country. There has been NO incivility, and in point of fact, everyone has risen above to demonstrate respect and tolerance. I will say that I can see Lizzie's point, and while I do not agree with her, I must confess I think she and I are talking about the chicken and the egg. How does one determine which came first? It does sadden me, as an individual who values honor and integrity as I do, to think that our great country suffers from such a paucity of leaders to respect and demonstrate behavior for the rest of us to emulate. I took great care to raise my daughters as honorable, upstanding citizens, but I have wondered at times if in doing so, I didn't handicap them in their everyday interaction with the liars and cheats we must all deal with daily.

 

[Undertow]

Mike, I think the "political" discourse we ban on the Lounge is specifically directed to partisan rancor. This discussion, so far, certainly tiptoes a fine line, but it appears to be theory. Unfortunately, in order to discuss the degneration of American Society, we must necessarily discuss political theory at some point. In America, it's difficult to discuss political theory without brushing over one party or the other since we have a relatively limited field (R's and D's, with the occasional straggling I's). I think this conversation has done well in avoiding the kind of political discourse that's not welcome here. It may be a bit dry for some, but I certainly don't think it's the kind of thing that sinks threads.

 

[Pompidou]

I agree on the chicken and egg issue. The system makes choosing the right people difficult, and choosing the wrong people make the system such that it's difficult to choose otherwise. Who knows what came first. I agree with Lizzie that a nation's leadership can only be as good as the population that spawned it.

 

[C-dot]

I don't know... Whether the quasi-political discussion in this thread is toeing the line or not, its certainly not related to the original topic. And, quite frankly, it makes me uncomfortable.

The subject matter here is intrinsic to the state of affairs in our country.

I am not American, and neither are many of the posters in this thread. I think the OP's intention was to talk of social matters directly around us, which is a considerably smaller scope, and thus includes everyone.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

All you need to know is that politics comes from the Greek words "poly" meaning many and "ticks" meaning parasites. lol
(with apologies to Jay Leno)

 

[Undertow]

I'm still interested to know what folks on the Lounge suggest we do to improve things. What problems are worth fixing and how do we go about fixing them?

For instance, I specifically purchase items which appear to possess some level of quality. Whether that's a Honda over a Chevy, or a RedWing over a Nike, I let my money do the talking for me. That's just one example; anyone have others?

 

[sheeplady]

Sorry if I offended anyone.

A few years ago I had the fortune of sitting around with people from over 15 different countries and chatting about corruption and government. What makes me extremely hopeful is that most people couldn't top my stories of politicians acting like children- that means that the political system does work in some places. Of course, there were some extremely sad stories, but these were from people who were living under dictators and/or civil war. And they'd trade their government any day for mine.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I'm still interested to know what folks on the Lounge suggest we do to improve things. What problems are worth fixing and how do we go about fixing them?

I don't know that they *can* be fixed, given that it would take a culture-wide shift, but as individuals putting our money where our mouths are is a good place to start. I refuse to buy junk, period.

Doing our duty to our neighborhoods and our communities is another --- thinking of them as *communities* and not just the place where we happen to live, and being as involved in them as we can possibly be. Don't wait for the other guy to get involved first -- set the example yourself.

And don't be complacent. Don't tell yourself, "things could be worse" and expect things to ever get better.

 

[MikeBravo]

Okay, I'll put this another way. Nobody outside of America really cares

I fail to see what "the degeneration of American Society" has to do with the golden era or hats or suits!

Having said that, I appreciate your points of view (and your ability to express them). However the thread actually has become political and I know to avoid this thread in future. Long live The Lounge!

See you in the funny pages