The general decline in standards today

[MikeBravo]

Okay, I'll put this another way. Nobody outside of America really cares

I fail to see what "the degeneration of American Society" has to do with the golden era or hats or suits!

Having said that, I appreciate your points of view (and your ability to express them). However the thread actually has become political and I know to avoid this thread in future. Long live The Lounge!

See you in the funny pages

 

[Pompidou]

There's a thread on showing one's tattoos, but I don't have a tattoo, so I just don't bother with that thread. Seems like an amicable solution to any topic a person has no personal interest in. Either that, or post about the general decline in standards in your own country as counterpoint to the American POV already expressed. Talk about, "the social matters directly around us (you)". If an American is talking, the social matters around us will be American, but that doesn't mean folks of other countries can't do the same for their own. I don't think anyone would mind reading a British or Australian POV. It'd be a better solution than, "this topic doesn't 100% pertain to me, so can we close it?"

 

[scooter]

It does strike me as odd that you claim no one outside the United States cares, yet you and your countryman, Binkie Dundee, feel compelled to comment repeatedly on what has been, but for your intercession, a civil and polite discourse. If in fact, you do not care, perhaps you should confine yourselves to matters that do concern and interest you. At last glance, no one here was holding your feet to the fire to repeatedly intrude on our debate, or for that matter to open the thread at all.

C-dot, I can understand that this subject matter makes you a bit uncomfortable, but it is debate such as this, on a much larger scale, that may actually someday change the standards of behavior in question. Hiding from it will definitely NOT affect any change at all.

 

[LizzieMaine]

No need to be piling on anyone here, folks, nor is there any need for back-seat bartending. Telling people what they should or shouldn't post is up to the staff, not the customers. And it's exactly these types of situations that led us to ban political discussions -- even innocent ones can get out of control fast.

A lot of these issues *are* global, and personally I think questions of cultural priorities apply anywhere in the world. If it seems to be skewed to the American perspective, I certainly didn't intend my own remarks to be taken that way.

 

[sheeplady]

I think that the idea that no one cares what happens outside of their country is a little... off. I care very much what is happening in Greece with their debt crisis (and more largely what happens in the EU in regards to various financial issues of the individual countries). I also care what happens in China, India, Canada, Mexico, etc. I care about the solutions these countries have developed to deal with some of the issues my country is facing. I think we can learn a lot from others, both successes and mistakes.

We're all interconnected now, like it or not.

Declines in any "developed" or even "developing" nation affect me. Do they affect me in the same way as declines in my own neighborhood- the same as if there is a crack den next door? No, probably not. But you can bet they affect when I'll be able to retire, my ability to purchase good mades overseas, and inflation and the economy/job market in my own country. Those are all very large affects.

 

[Undertow]

Here's an interesting little article from The Consumerist that seems to highlight the common theme of this thread:
Antique Piggy Bank From eBay Stuffed With $133 In Cash

Shawn bought this antique piggy bank on eBay for $13.50. Adorable, isn't it? What was even more adorable was what he found when he pulled out the original cork: $133 in cash. That'll do, pig. That'll do.

Shawn's tale, straight out of an episode of "Storage Wars":

“I thought you'd find this interesting. I bought a vintage 1950s piggy bank w/ original cork on eBay for S13.50 (plus S&H). Inside, to my surprise, I found $133 in cash! I'm considering this a cosmic win, and have no intention of [telling the] seller. Is that jerky?”
I don't think so. Under the sacred law of "finders, keepers" the seller should have checked inside the bank before selling it. You bought the bank and its contents.

What do you think, Consumerist Hive Mind? Is Shawn justified in not letting the seller know? Would it matter if the seller were an individual selling their own possessions, instead of an antiques dealer?

Update: Shawn just wrote back that the bills all have series dates from the early to mid 1980s, so they've probably been in that bank for 20-25 years.

I found the comments section interesting, and quite telling. It seems everyone KNOWS what the right thing is to do, but they try to rationalize why they shouldn't do the right thing. Like Lizzie says, it's all about looking out for #1.

 

[LizzieMaine]

What gets me are the people who'd keep the money *and* tell the seller. Is "HA HA SUCKER" really the motto of the modern age?

 

[Undertow]

Exactly. It's shameful.

I guess the irony is that The Consumerist is a blog-style news outlet that reports on various consumer concerns, e.g. Wal-Mart purposely mischarges unwary customers, etc. The irony is that these readers seem to believe a giant corporation shouldn't cheat unsuspecting folks out of their dough, but it's "fair" to play "finders, keepers" with $133 someone found in a piggy bank? That kind of attitude disgusts and repulses me.

I guess people can't understand that in order to change the prevailing attitude, they must change their own first. [huh]

(I would have given the money back in a heartbeat - and I don't think that's being generous or kind.)

 

[JimWagner]

Some people are honest and a lot aren't. It's certainly nothing new though. What's new is that you can certainly find more stories about it on the internet. I really believe that skews people's perceptions. Before the internet you just wouldn't likely have heard about that piggy bank incident unless you personally knew the parties involved (or a friend of a friend). Making the leap from hearing about an incident like this across the country from you that you wouldn't have even heard about before the internet to wow things have gotten worse is quite a leap.

Same applies to tallying up a few comments from people widely scattered and getting people in general are more dishonest.

The plain fact of the matter is that there have always been quite a few people who are only as honest as they have to be and if that shocks you then maybe you've led a sheltered life.

 

[LizzieMaine]

It's the schadenfreude that bothers me, frankly. The idea that the guy should, basically, gloat about the money by flaunting it before the seller is just -- perverse. I know people who'd do this, and I go to great lengths to avoid them. There have always been sociopaths, but that takes it too far. There have always been jackasses -- but now they consider their jackassery a mark of pride. Maybe what we really need is for *shame* to make a comeback.

I try to imagine my grandfather doing something like that and my mind doesn't just boggle, it falls over on its back and has a spasm. I can't even imagine his brother the bootlegger doing something like that.

 

[sheeplady]

I try to imagine my grandfather doing something like that and my mind doesn't just boggle, it falls over on its back and has a spasm. I can't even imagine his brother the bootlegger doing something like that.

On the other hand, I can imagine my grandfather doing that, complete with the bragging to the seller. But then he and my grandmother also poisoned the neighbor's dog because it went to the bathroom on my grandparent's lawn (once).

I like to pretend that I am not related to these people.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Pete Hamill on shame:

"The sense of shame is a kind of cement in any decent society. The fear of shame reminds each of us that some things must not be done. You don't become a criminal because you would bring shame to your family. You don't employ muscle against the weak. You don't beat up women or prey on the old. You don't father children and then abandon them. You don't cheat or swindle because exposure would coat you with the tar of shame. You don't preach high ideals and live a lie. But it's clear that we are now awash in shamelessness. It's clear that the sense of shame needs to be revived and the shameless held to account. "

Couldn't agree more.

 

[lolly_loisides]

I like to pretend that I am not related to these people.

I think everyone has distant (and not too distant) relatives that we wish we never had (oi, the stories about my Great Grandfather I could tell you....).

 

[LizzieMaine]

I think everyone has distant (and not too distant) relatives that we wish we never had (oi, the stories about my Great Grandfather I could tell you....).

I don't even have to go back that far -- if I ever see my father again, I'll spit in his face and walk away. But the difference is, when he did what he did he was viewed with nothing but contempt by the people who knew him. Nowadays, people would say, "ah, well, what's the difference."

 

[lolly_loisides]

I don't even have to go back that far -- if I ever see my father again, I'll spit in his face and walk away. But the difference is, when he did what he did he was viewed with nothing but contempt by the people who knew him. Nowadays, people would say, "ah, well, what's the difference."

Without going into (your or my) personal family details, I think modern society reactions to certain crimes have changed for the better. Violence towards women and children especially. Back in the day it wasn't spoken of & rarely reported to the police.

 

[LizzieMaine]

When it was, however, the punishments could be extremely harsh.

 

[Mocheman]

Here's an interesting little article from The Consumerist that seems to highlight the common theme of this thread:
Antique Piggy Bank From eBay Stuffed With $133 In Cash

Shawn bought this antique piggy bank on eBay for $13.50. Adorable, isn't it? What was even more adorable was what he found when he pulled out the original cork: $133 in cash. That'll do, pig. That'll do.

Shawn's tale, straight out of an episode of "Storage Wars":

“I thought you'd find this interesting. I bought a vintage 1950s piggy bank w/ original cork on eBay for S13.50 (plus S&H). Inside, to my surprise, I found $133 in cash! I'm considering this a cosmic win, and have no intention of [telling the] seller. Is that jerky?”
I don't think so. Under the sacred law of "finders, keepers" the seller should have checked inside the bank before selling it. You bought the bank and its contents.

What do you think, Consumerist Hive Mind? Is Shawn justified in not letting the seller know? Would it matter if the seller were an individual selling their own possessions, instead of an antiques dealer?

Update: Shawn just wrote back that the bills all have series dates from the early to mid 1980s, so they've probably been in that bank for 20-25 years.

I found the comments section interesting, and quite telling. It seems everyone KNOWS what the right thing is to do, but they try to rationalize why they shouldn't do the right thing. Like Lizzie says, it's all about looking out for #1.

A couple of years ago I bought a late 40's early 50's Stetson Hamburg from a guy in Seattle on Ebay. That hat had belonged to his uncle who was a former boxer. When I received the hat I found $100 worth of 20 dollar bills that had been hidden under the liner. They were all dated 1954. I immediately shot the previous owner an email telling him of what I had found and that I would send him the money back since it wasn't what I had purchased. He was very surprised and thankful for me letting him know of the money. He wrote that it sounded like something his uncle would have done. However he said since I was honest about the find I should keep one of the bills. I wrote him back to thank him and sent the money on its way, keeping one of the $20 bills. I was very excited that he let me have one of them since it added to the hat's history.

In the end it just seemed like a no brainer to me. I purchased the hat and not the money. If the owner had known the money was there he would kept it and not sent it with the hat. Pretty simple.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

A couple of years ago I bought a late 40's early 50's Stetson Hamburg from a guy in Seattle on Ebay. That hat had belonged to his uncle who was a former boxer. When I received the hat I found $100 worth of 20 dollar bills that had been hidden under the liner. They were all dated 1954. I immediately shot the previous owner an email telling him of what I had found and that I would send him the money back since it wasn't what I had purchased. He was very surprised and thankful for me letting him know of the money. He wrote that it sounded like something his uncle would have done. However he said since I was honest about the find I should keep one of the bills. I wrote him back to thank him and sent the money on its way, keeping one of the $20 bills. I was very excited that he let me have one of them since it added to the hat's history.

In the end it just seemed like a no brainer to me. I purchased the hat and not the money. If the owner had known the money was there he would kept it and not sent it with the hat. Pretty simple.

Slightly Oscar Tango but it reminds me a little of what happened to one of my neighbors. A few years ago he suffered a stroke and afterward was staying with his daughter for several months while he underwent therapy. One day the daughter and her husband came to clean up his house which was a real mess. They hired a dumpster and threw out tons of junk. When my neighbor returned home he was hopping mad because the daughter and son-in-law threw out a lot of stuff that he didn't want thrown away -- including $3,000 in cash that was in a paper bag!"

 

[Puzzicato]

I'm still interested to know what folks on the Lounge suggest we do to improve things. What problems are worth fixing and how do we go about fixing them?

For instance, I specifically purchase items which appear to possess some level of quality. Whether that's a Honda over a Chevy, or a RedWing over a Nike, I let my money do the talking for me. That's just one example; anyone have others?

Ah now this could throw up some interesting suggestions!

For me, I have a very narrow sphere of influence, so I don't think I can change the world. I do, however, hope to have some impact on the people around me, in a very small way:
Being polite to the people I encounter. Smiling at the girl who makes my coffee in the morning. Voting. Writing to my Member of Parliament about things that I think are important. Supporting independent local businesses. Supporting craftsmen and artisans. Making the occasional batch of cookies for my colleagues at work. Writing thank you notes. Letting the teenager at the checkout know when they have undercharged me, so that their till isn't out at the end of the day. Giving clear, accurate directions to people who ask for them. Offering my seat to older people, people with disabilities, pregnant women.

Nothing at all revolutionary, but hopefully they are things that make people think "That was nice - that's how I'd like things to be".

 

[C-dot]

C-dot, I can understand that this subject matter makes you a bit uncomfortable, but it is debate such as this, on a much larger scale, that may actually someday change the standards of behavior in question. Hiding from it will definitely NOT affect any change at all.

I'm not uncomfortable with a good debate, and I don't shy away from discussions like this - Quite the opposite. I just didn't (and still don't) understand what it had to do with the original post. Now that the subject matter is back on track, we can all move on.

For me, I have a very narrow sphere of influence, so I don't think I can change the world. I do, however, hope to have some impact on the people around me, in a very small way... ...Nothing at all revolutionary, but hopefully they are things that make people think "That was nice - that's how I'd like things to be".

To my mind, its these interactions that matter most - You've got to start somewhere. You may not be making a radical change that affects every man, woman and child on the planet, but you're making a difference to that person.