The Declining Popularity of the Necktie

[martinsantos]

I saw what you tell about. A lot of my Law School colleagues went to those very large offices (more than 5 hundred lawyers). In these offices the use of tie by young lawyers was recriminated. Suits, etc, were only wore by the chiefs.

As Hal says, the tie is about expression and aesthetic display. The cynic in me has decided that the reason more businesses are drifting over to "business casual" is in order to stamp on this self expression. Businesses, in general, want automata; they want people who will follow rules and orders to the letter. They do not want thinkers, they want drones. By suppressing what is essentially the only means of male aesthetic expression of individuality in business dress, they have finally cottoned on to how to control men more effectively in the workplace. The only surprising thing is that they took so long to work it out …

I practice labor and administrative law generally. My practice represents police officers in administrative, civil, and criminal matters. It's a fun gig.

Fun certainly is! I have worked a lot with police officers as clients, and usually they get procedings very interesting. Specially those with Grand Jury (my big love as a Lawyer since my student days! Here only for murder)

 

[Baron Kurtz]

There's an article in a 1933 edition of Apparel Arts decrying the tielessness that was apparently rife, particularly amongst youth age-groups. It's certainly not an (non)issue that was absent in the golden era.

Oddly enough, I think that folks in the "golden era" may have been more comfortabe in ties during the summer because they didn't have air conditioning. They slowly climatized to the weather as it warmed and, by August, they could tolorate the claustrophobic feeling of wearing a tie in our snot boiling heat and humidity.

So maybe air conditioning is killing the neck tie? I can only hope.

AF

 

[AtomicEraTom]

I've always wondered how they endured back when. I see old photos, summertime in Arizona, 1889 and they're all in black suits, waistcoats, ties, derbies, etc. I'd be schvitzing like no other. Summer in Arizona? It's gotta be 150 degrees in the shade lol I am sweating already at 70 degrees!

I wear a tie Monday through Friday beause the North Carolina State Bar says that I must wear a tie (and a jacket) when I address any court in our state. But I hate ties. I mainly hate them because summers in eastern North Carolina are very hot and humid. Our July and August highs often top 100 degrees and our humidity is usually two clicks past saturation. Trust me, wearing a piece of cloth knotted around one's neck in that kind of weather can be uncomfortabe to the point of distraction.

Oddly enough, I think that folks in the "golden era" may have been more comfortabe in ties during the summer because they didn't have air conditioning. They slowly climatized to the weather as it warmed and, by August, they could tolorate the claustrophobic feeling of wearing a tie in our snot boiling heat and humidity.

So maybe air conditioning is killing the neck tie? I can only hope.

AF

 

[Razorman937]

I don't think my generation knows how to tie a tie

 

[Baron Kurtz]

You're not wrong. Moronic British Imperial officials swaggering around India et al. in black frock coats; the full Victorian kit. Those things were not lightweight wool. It's no wonder the Indians (rightly) had and have no respect for them.

I've always wondered how they endured back when. I see old photos, summertime in Arizona, 1889 and they're all in black suits, waistcoats, ties, derbies, etc. I'd be schvitzing like no other. Summer in Arizona? It's gotta be 150 degrees in the shade lol I am sweating already at 70 degrees!

 

[Bourne ID]

I've been reading through this thread with interest. My Father, as a minister, allways has worn a tie, and growing up attending church several times a week I accepted suits and ties as "normal" attire. I attended private school and also wore a tie as part of the uniform. And then I left home...and out in the world of "modern men" I discovered that folks were dressing a lot differently than those in church and private schools. I guess I led a very sheltered life up till that point and in the construction trades since then I've found that most of the men (and their women) prefer sweatpants and t-shirts with nascar or beer brand advertising on them. And don't even get me started on the "style" of highschoolers. I've got a crew of men, grown men with families, working for me in the shop and half of them wear sweatpants and t-shirts year round. I'm surrounded by a culture that seems content to appear as if they've crawled out of the local landfill. It's not just the tie that's being lost, it's not just changing styles, there was and is a rejection of the ideals and values that were common in the golden era. Is a sense of class just about style? Or is it the mark of culture and confidence. Of continually seeking to better oneself, to be the man(or woman) you should be.

 

[John in Covina]

A tie that needs to be worn for court need not be worn until you get to court and can be taken off after you leave court. Court being the operating word here.

Tie the tie and then open it a bit and have your collar open.
Then shortly before you leave your car you button your collar
slide the tie up and straighten it.

Reverse these directions when you leave court or remove the tie completely.

 

[martinsantos]

John,

Just adding about the dressing codes in courts.

Here in SP the dressing codes are very newer than I thought - started in very late 60s, beggining 70s. At those days appeared some using hippie clothing (and some women with mini/micro desses). A changing of tastes and times, I believe. Something that before was so common started to be not the usual.

 

[John in Covina]

It's not just the tie that's being lost, it's not just changing styles, there was and is a rejection of the ideals and values that were common in the golden era. Is a sense of class just about style? Or is it the mark of culture and confidence. Of continually seeking to better oneself, to be the man(or woman) you should be.

In this age people are taught conflicting ideals as to whether one should better themselves or become wards of the state.

Along with that is a loss of other ideals: in the past "honor and duty" was tops now it is a "follow your heart" ideal.

Today natural man is the same as before and the hearts of men is filled with mostly desires of the physical pleasures: food, drink and sex coupled with mental pleasures of having fun. Anything that interferes with that does not fall under the "follow your heart" theme. Bettering one self used to include the idea that a human being as a man strived to over come the natural man's instincts that are considered animal.

This list may be familiar to some of you from your upbringing: pride, covetousness, envy, gluttony, anger, sloth, and lust. Here modern society is championing some of these and sloth in appearance is getting a big pass by many today.

 

[John in Covina]

John, Just adding about the dressing codes in courts. Here in SP the dressing codes are very newer than I thought - started in very late 60s, beggining 70s. At those days appeared some using hippie clothing (and some women with mini/micro desses). A changing of tastes and times, I believe. Something that before was so common started to be not the usual.

What often happens is the authorities find that enforcing dress codes makes for too much difficulty in getting the work done.

 

[Atticus Finch]

A tie that needs to be worn for court need not be worn until you get to court and can be taken off after you leave court. Court being the operating word here.

Tie the tie and then open it a bit and have your collar open.
Then shortly before you leave your car you button your collar
slide the tie up and straighten it.

Reverse these directions when you leave court or remove the tie completely.

No, it isn't quite that simple. But thanks for the suggestion.

AF

 

[Widebrim]

In this age people are taught conflicting ideals as to whether one should better themselves or become wards of the state.

Along with that is a loss of other ideals: in the past "honor and duty" was tops now it is a "follow your heart" ideal.

Today natural man is the same as before and the hearts of men is filled with mostly desires of the physical pleasures: food, drink and sex coupled with mental pleasures of having fun. Anything that interferes with that does not fall under the "follow your heart" theme. Bettering one self used to include the idea that a human being as a man strived to over come the natural man's instincts that are considered animal.

This list may be familiar to some of you from your upbringing: pride, covetousness, envy, gluttony, anger, sloth, and lust. Here modern society is championing some of these and sloth in appearance is getting a big pass by many today.

Generally speaking (to use that sometimes nebulous phrase), you've made some valid points, John.

 

[Widebrim]

I don't think my generation knows how to tie a tie

And many of their parents. At my school we have (unofficially) Necktie Friday, and many of the students who participate have improper knots (done by their parents), and have their ties hanging halfway down their shirts/blouses.

 

[John in Covina]

No, it isn't quite that simple. But thanks for the suggestion. AF

I am curious as to what makes it so complicated.

 

[Widebrim]

I am curious as to what makes it so complicated.

John, I would imagine that AF is refering to the fact that he needs to have the tie in place as soon as he exits his car (at least that's what I think).

 

[Atticus Finch]

Hi john. Its several things. First, it is the extra bulk of having the tie around one's neck. It isn't a problem three seasons of the year, but when the weather is very hot and humid, having four layers of cloth around my neck makes me feel like I'm wearing a horse collar. Second, I am also one who doesn't like the loose tie look. I think that a younger, thinner man can pull off that sort of thing, but older, thicker guys like me tend to look like slobs when they wear their ties down and their collars open. Just my opinion, big guys! Of course, my job entails much more than just going to court...I also have to meet with victims, go to pretrial conferences, go to crime scenes and much more. I think I would be constantly undoing and redoing my tie and collar...so I generally just suck it up and leave it knotted.

Finally, and this is most important to me, if an article of clothing is so impractical that one has to be constantly removing it during the course of a day, maybe it ought not to be worn in the first place. Sure, we don and remove coats and hats, but they keep us warm when we are outside in the cold. They have a genuine use. But a tie serves no practical purpose that I can see, yet it can be the source of much discomfort. I vote to just do away with it, altogether.

I'm not sure that I've been to Covina, but I did once spend a summer in the Bay area. I can see why tie wearing there wouldn't be much of an issue. It seems that the air in the populated areas of California is generally cool and dry...or at least cool or dry. But were you to spend a few summers in Eastern NC, and experience the combined heat and humidity here, I think you'd soon be giving your ties the stink eye. I know I do.

AF

 

[Betz]

Hi john. Its several things. First, it is the extra bulk of having the tie around one's neck. It isn't a problem three seasons of the year, but when the weather is very hot and humid, having four layers of cloth around my neck makes me feel like I'm wearing a horse collar. Second, I am also one who doesn't like the loose tie look. I think that a younger, thinner man can pull off that sort of thing, but older, thicker guys like me tend to look like slobs when they wear their ties down and their collars open. Just my opinion, big guys! Of course, my job entails much more than just going to court...I also have to meet with victims, go to pretrial conferences, go to crime scenes and much more. I think I would be constantly undoing and redoing my tie and collar...so I generally just suck it up and leave it knotted.

Finally, and this is most important to me, if an article of clothing is so impractical that one has to be constantly removing it during the course of a day, maybe it ought not to be worn in the first place. Sure, we don and remove coats and hats, but they keep us warm when we are outside in the cold. They have a genuine use. But a tie serves no practical purpose that I can see, yet it can be the source of much discomfort. I vote to just do away with it, altogether.

I'm not sure that I've been to Covina, but I did once spend a summer in the Bay area. I can see why tie wearing there wouldn't be much of an issue. It seems that the air in the populated areas of California is generally cool and dry...or at least cool or dry. But were you to spend a few summers in Eastern NC, and experience the combined heat and humidity here, I think you'd soon be giving your ties the stink eye. I know I do.

AF

You got that right, AF. The weather here is generally cool and foggy for most of the year. I work mostly in Oakland, CA with the police officers association there. The climate is generally so cool that I am almost never hot wearing my suit. One of the benefits of living up here!

 

[Effingham]

Along with that is a loss of other ideals: in the past "honor and duty" was tops now it is a "follow your heart" ideal.

John, I like the cut of your jib.

I agree with you 110 percent.

 

[John in Covina]

For me as a pretty big guy myself I have usually kept a tie open and then set it right as the need suggested.
I come from Long Island NY which in the summer is often fairly hot & always as humid as most "tropical" areas. (Long Island in the summer is the type of place where you break into a sweat toweling off after a shower.) And from a time when my parents did not get AC in any car they bought.

Covina is in the San Gabriel Valley north & east of LA. It drier but in the daytime summer temps are 90 plus for a large portion of the summer and we tend to have total time of 3-4 weeks of 100 plus temps with over 110 at times. Plus, it is much more humid than it was in the past.

For me what I have suggested is a working solution, for others it won't work whether it is a logistics question or a personal likes / dislikes thing. Just looking for viable solutions as they say.

Made me think of the doormen at the various casinos in Las Vegas in the old days. It would be 115 degree weather and they're in a long heavy overcoat, I always figured they had pockets inside that were holding packets of "blue ice."

 

[Torpedo]

At work (crime scene specialist-scientific police) I wear tie or bow tie, with long sleeved shirt and jacket (suit jacket or odd jacket-trousers combination), all year round. Voluntarily; dress code (not that there is actually a code) is very casual. This is in Barcelona, Spain, in the Mediterranean coast.

I do it because of personal preference by a variety of reasons.

(I wear the same out of work, too, more often than not.)

Usually, in my organization, personnel changes are done in October, when people who have applied for other postings, or are promoted, leave, and new incorporations get in. I have heard some of them think (even secretly expect) I will drop the tie, jacket, and long sleeves when the good weather arrives. Such a thing has never happened. I do not even loosen my tie knot .

PLEASE NOTE the above, while being true, is not meant to be disparaging to any other dress choice or opinion displayed here. It is just my choice.