The Decaying Evolution of Education...

[GHT]

Personally, my garbageman and mailman are two people I value the most in my life, after family and friends...

That's a lesson that I learned very quickly when I started my own business. I don't want to stray away from the subject, but you do have a very good point there.

My business was logistics, I, as in my company, would collect or warehouse a customers goods, despatch them to a sortation centre and ensure onward delivery. A sort of UPS, only we had dedicated customers. For example, in the UK we have three big pharmacy retailers. I did the storage, sortation and delivery throughout southern England for one of them. I did the collection, delivery to the photographic laboratories and return to the retailer of photographic film, pre-digital for a company in the Kodak empire and similar other contracts.

Most of my staff compliment were what you could euphemistically call: Semi-skilled. Warehouse staff, fork-lift drivers, van drivers and so on. I found that careful use of the stick, combined with an equal measure of the carrot, resulted in loyal, well trained and trusted staff. We had few sickies, which I only paid the basic sick pay, an insignificant amount. However, I did pay well, and my staff all had extra annual leave too. So if they had a heavy cold and needed a couple of days off, they could either insure themselves with some of the higher money they were paid, or they could take a couple of days of the extra leave I gave.

UK employment law says employees must have 20 days annual leave plus the 8 days statutory public holidays. A total of 28. I gave them 33 days. The UK minimum wage at the time would have had them earn £15K per annum. I paid them £24K. They loved their jobs and my business thrived, even through the difficult time of the 2008 crash. The old adage about pay peanuts and you employ monkeys sounds true enough, but put a bit of effort into your staff, train them, pay them their due, don't take no nonsense and you will be amazed at the result.

 

[Harp]

When I consider the wonderful activity of the mind, so great a memory of what is past,
and such capacity of penetrating into the future; when I behold such a number of arts
and sciences, and such a multitude of discoveries thence arising; I believe and am firmly
persuaded that a nature which contains so many things within itself cannot be mortal.

Cicero: De Senectute

 

[philosophygirl78]

That's a lesson that I learned very quickly when I started my own business. I don't want to stray away from the subject, but you do have a very good point there.

My business was logistics, I, as in my company, would collect or warehouse a customers goods, despatch them to a sortation centre and ensure onward delivery. A sort of UPS, only we had dedicated customers. For example, in the UK we have three big pharmacy retailers. I did the storage, sortation and delivery throughout southern England for one of them. I did the collection, delivery to the photographic laboratories and return to the retailer of photographic film, pre-digital for a company in the Kodak empire and similar other contracts.

Most of my staff compliment were what you could euphemistically call: Semi-skilled. Warehouse staff, fork-lift drivers, van drivers and so on. I found that careful use of the stick, combined with an equal measure of the carrot, resulted in loyal, well trained and trusted staff. We had few sickies, which I only paid the basic sick pay, an insignificant amount. However, I did pay well, and my staff all had extra annual leave too. So if they had a heavy cold and needed a couple of days off, they could either insure themselves with some of the higher money they were paid, or they could take a couple of days of the extra leave I gave.

UK employment law says employees must have 20 days annual leave plus the 8 days statutory public holidays. A total of 28. I gave them 33 days. The UK minimum wage at the time would have had them earn £15K per annum. I paid them £24K. They loved their jobs and my business thrived, even through the difficult time of the 2008 crash. The old adage about pay peanuts and you employ monkeys sounds true enough, but put a bit of effort into your staff, train them, pay them their due, don't take no nonsense and you will be amazed at the result.

Any extreme division inter-species will lead to the destruction of that caste system. We are slowly inching towards that in a very steady and visible manner...

 

[philosophygirl78]

When I consider the wonderful activity of the mind, so great a memory of what is past,
and such capacity of penetrating into the future; when I behold such a number of arts
and sciences, and such a multitude of discoveries thence arising; I believe and am firmly
persuaded that a nature which contains so many things within itself cannot be mortal.

Cicero: De Senectute

That's beautiful, but how are you applying it to this discussion?

 

[Harp]

That's beautiful, but how are you applying it to this discussion?

Rhetorically, of course.

 

[LizzieMaine]

The old adage about pay peanuts and you employ monkeys sounds true enough, but put a bit of effort into your staff, train them, pay them their due, don't take no nonsense and you will be amazed at the result.

There is skilled labor and there is cheap labor, but there is no such thing as skilled cheap labor.

 

[HudsonHawk]

There is skilled labor and there is cheap labor, but there is no such thing as skilled cheap labor.

Well, not legally anyway. But that's a whole nuther discussion.

 

[sheeplady]

Good, fast, and cheap.

Pick two.

 

[JimWagner]

Now that needs to be on a tshirt!

 

[tonyb]

As was noted by Barbara Ehrenreich (and numerous others with extensive firsthand experience with grunt work), there is no such thing as unskilled labor. There are convenience store clerks who can make that line move without leaving the customers feeling they've been rushed along. And you can't help but learn a thing or two about removing old asphalt shingles after being on the roofing crew a while.
We inherited the gardener from the previous property owner. I'm not in the habit of paying for such services, but when the lawn was covered inches deep in leaves this past autumn, and when I saw how the gardener and his assistant could do in an hour and a half why would have taken me all weekend (and do it better), I reconsidered.

 

[JimWagner]

But there is such a thing as incompetent labor. No matter what they are paid.

 

[tonyb]

But there is such a thing as incompetent labor. No matter what they are paid.

No kiddin'. I had the misfortune of dealing with a lousy real estate agent and a so-so lawyer this past year. And I had a physician who somehow overlooked everything I was trying to tell him about my symptoms. It took a nurse practitioner about 30 seconds to accurately diagnose the problem.

 

[philosophygirl78]

But there is such a thing as incompetent labor. No matter what they are paid.

Good point!

 

[HudsonHawk]

No kiddin'. I had the misfortune of dealing with a lousy real estate agent and a so-so lawyer this past year. And I had a physician who somehow overlooked everything I was trying to tell him about my symptoms. It took a nurse practitioner about 30 seconds to accurately diagnose the problem.

Doctors are sometimes funny about stuff. My mother ended up in the hospital a couple of years ago with severe intestinal issues. After a week or so, they'd brought in no less than four specialist gastroenterologists, from world renown hospitals, and they still couldn't figure out what was wrong. The doctors had even suggested it might be fatal and there was nothing they could do. They finally brought in some regular old doctor for something else, and he immediately said she was having an allergic reaction and asked what medication she was taking. She ran down the list, and about halfway he said "that's the one." They cut that out and she was "cured" overnight. The doctor added "what the hell is wrong with these yahoos...any first year resident should have been able to identify that within 30 seconds." Turns out the specialists were so busy looking for some obscure reason that they missed the plainly obvious one staring them in the face.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

No kiddin'. I had the misfortune of dealing with a lousy real estate agent and a so-so lawyer this past year. And I had a physician who somehow overlooked everything I was trying to tell him about my symptoms. It took a nurse practitioner about 30 seconds to accurately diagnose the problem.

And a lot of that goes back to declining standards in everything that has been going on since the '60s. Because at one time it was possible to find smart, competent people even in many low level jobs but not anymore.

 

[Fading Fast]

Another aspect that displays just how decayed the education system worldwide has become is the perception that comes along with the various labor sectors.... One would imagine that humane adherence to jobs would be taught across society in the 21st century.... I simply do not understand why it is a notion that the factory worker is not as ethically valuable as the fund money manager...

This is different now, than attributing a fiscal value, or salary to a profession; which is an entirely new thread of discussion, and one probably worth opening.

Personally, my garbageman and mailman are two people I value the most in my life, after family and friends...

Doctors are sometimes funny about stuff. My mother ended up in the hospital a couple of years ago with severe intestinal issues. After a week or so, they'd brought in no less than four specialist gastroenterologists, from world renown hospitals, and they still couldn't figure out what was wrong. The doctors had even suggested it might be fatal and there was nothing they could do. They finally brought in some regular old doctor for something else, and he immediately said she was having an allergic reaction and asked what medication she was taking. She ran down the list, and about halfway he said "that's the one." They cut that out and she was "cured" overnight. The doctor added "what the hell is wrong with these yahoos...any first year resident should have been able to identify that within 30 seconds." Turns out the specialists were so busy looking for some obscure reason that they missed the plainly obvious one staring them in the face.

First, thank God for your mom that the "regular" doctor came in. Also, there was a scene that echoed that in the movie "Doc Hollywood," a completely silly little movie that I'm embarrassed to admit I like.

 

[MikeKardec]

A few of the first undergrad course I took while still in high school were on a Pass / Fail basis. I did so on purpose, not because I couldn't score the grades (my overall undergrad GPA is 3.8), I did so because I was more interested in learning than in receiving some idealized merit of a letter...

I saw the focus on result (GPA, good looking projects, well written papers) constantly. Most of the profs I taught with took great pride in that and couldn't see that learning requires mistakes and some of those mistakes will continue beyond the end of the semester. I don't know how to quantify the learning value of trying things that don't work but (because I was 'visiting faculty' and needn't compete with the staff) I tried to encourage controlled failure as part of the process.

When I was in school everything was pass/incomplete. All tests were essay. If the prof didn't like your essays he kept sending them back to you in the mail until you "passed." The class turned into a correspondence course and so you had to pass everything you took or you didn't graduate!

I simply do not understand why it is a notion that the factory worker is not as ethically valuable as the fund money manager...

Personally, my garbageman and mailman are two people I value the most in my life, after family and friends...

Absolutely, those people allow me to make the sort of money I do, they don't take the risks I do and so don't get the big pay off but I'm reminded every day how much help they are! I've always thought risk should be the metric for higher paying jobs (and for the most part, it is), if you are willing to risk more, a long education or job experience, losing your job and not being able to get another like it or long lead times without pay (that's me) then you earn accordingly. There might be too much differential between a basic under grad education and none at all these days ... but that more likely the fault of THE DECAYING EVOLUTION OF EDUCATION! Anyway, if your risks are covered the pay differential shouldn't be as great.

 

[philosophygirl78]

And a lot of that goes back to declining standards in everything that has been going on since the '60s. Because at one time it was possible to find smart, competent people even in many low level jobs but not anymore.

Its hard to find competent people for high level positions as well....

 

[philosophygirl78]

Job availability and market condition weigh in as well, and IMHO utilize the indices in a manner such to manipulate the labor sectors and wages to accommodate big pockets.

 

[JimWagner]

There's a funny thing about competence in most professions, especially technical ones. While it can command a higher salary, it doesn't always. The problem often is that those who control the salaries (or rewards) are not knowledgable enough to be able to differentiate between those with true competence or skills and those without.

Often the rewards go to those who spend their time talking about the work instead of actually doing the work.