The Bowler or Derby Hat

[mayserwegener]

Doesn't surprise me. I hope Robert is doing well. I miss him on the German and Austrian side of things.

 

[Joshbru3]

Really glad you got this one. I had my eye on it, and just totally forgot about the auction. The square crown tall derbies are super rare. I love the 3/4 rear ribbon with the center buckle bow. That was a very classic style that I have seen in some adds from the 1880's/1890's.

 

[Joshbru3]

1890's Derby

 

[Redfokker]

Nice find Joshbru! For that age it is in very good shape!

 

[Celia]

I picked up this vintage "The Vellum" bowler hat about 10 years ago in a junk shop in the south of England. I couldn't really find any useful information on the brand so was hoping some of you could help me date it.

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There is a union label of the (UK) Felt Hatters and Trimmers Unions on the inside of the sweatband:

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There's no size label, but I'm a UK 6 7/8 - EU 56 and it fits just right.

 

[mayserwegener]

1890's Derby

Josh, Super! Really fantastic brim work!

 

[mayserwegener]

I picked up this vintage "The Vellum" bowler hat about 10 years ago in a junk shop in the south of England. I couldn't really find any useful information on the brand so was hoping some of you could help me date it.

There's no size label, but I'm a UK 6 7/8 - EU 56 and it fits just right.

Great! Doesn't appear to be any hat company mark. Is there another paper label behind the sweatband? I think there might be some information here on the English Hatter's Union label regarding dating but you would need to search.

 

[Celia]

Great! Doesn't appear to be any hat company mark. Is there another paper label behind the sweatband? I think there might be some information here on the English Hatter's Union label regarding dating but you would need to search.

There is nothing else behind the sweatband. I did do a search for union labels, but the threads that came up dealt with American, not British ones. From what I've found online the Felt Hatters and Trimmer's Unions started producing labels for hats from 1893 onwards. I think they used the same design for a very long time, which makes it difficult to date hats by the label.

The name "The Vellum" is stamped into the sweatband next to a crest with "special quality" written in it, as seen in the 5th picture I posted. Sorry the contrast isn't very good so it's hard to see the details.

 

[Redfokker]

I searched the 1910 Mens Wear Magazine and the 1920 year of The American Hatter and came up empty. Maybe the brand name is for a "jobber" maker. A Google search also brings up nothing. If there is a British version of the American Hatter available, that may give us better results, Steve?

 

[mayserwegener]

The English Hat Industry newspaper was called "The Hatters Gazette" (see below). There are copies at the U.S. Library of Congress that I have scanned through. The English Hat Companies were very conservative especially regarding the acceptance of European Soft Felt Hats (this was also the case in America but to a lesser degree). I think it's going to be difficult to find the company that made this hat without a mark. I come across similar hats from Germany that have a made up brand or model name and no company mark.

 

[mayserwegener]

Here is some information on the "Felt Hatters & Trimmers Unions".

http://www.pittdixon.go-plus.net/denton/jolly-hatters.htm

http://a-day-in-the-life.powys.org.uk/images/w_unionlg.jpg

https://cdn.globalauctionplatform.c...493c0-ff69-4b3a-b2e6-c50fdcd14d40/540x360.jpg

I realized I did some past searching on the "Felt Hatters & Trimmers Unions" stamp and came to the conclusion that it remained consistent over the years.

 

[Redfokker]

Here is some information on the "Felt Hatters & Trimmers Unions".

http://www.pittdixon.go-plus.net/denton/jolly-hatters.htm

http://a-day-in-the-life.powys.org.uk/images/w_unionlg.jpg

https://cdn.globalauctionplatform.c...493c0-ff69-4b3a-b2e6-c50fdcd14d40/540x360.jpg

I realized I did some past searching on the "Felt Hatters & Trimmers Unions" stamp and came to the conclusion that it remained consistent over the years.

I knew you were the guru on this subject!

 

[mayserwegener]

Here is a list of the Hat Industry newspapers (the major hat producing countries).

http://germanaustrianhats.invisionz...c/107-international-hat-trade-papers-1898-99/

 

[Celia]

Thank you for all the interesting information. In the mean time I did find a very similar bowler which was sold on Etsy. It also has "The Vellum" in the same lettering on the sweatband, but in gold and without the crest next to it. The liner is also slightly different and has a Bennett's London logo where mine says Best Superior Make. They do look very similar apart from that. They have a definite dating of 1933 for their hat. It may of course be a model that was made for a long time.

Here's the link: https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/126102612/reserved-for-clf-bowler-hat-by-battersby

 

[mmbarnes]

Thank you for all the interesting information. In the mean time I did find a very similar bowler which was sold on Etsy. It also has "The Vellum" in the same lettering on the sweatband, but in gold and without the crest next to it. The liner is also slightly different and has a Bennett's London logo where mine says Best Superior Make. They do look very similar apart from that. They have a definite dating of 1933 for their hat. It may of course be a model that was made for a long time.

Here's the link: https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/126102612/reserved-for-clf-bowler-hat-by-battersby

A quick search on the Google reveals an example of a "The Vellum" bowler by A.J. Moores & Sons. I'm wondering if the auctions inclusion of "A" in the name is an error. I'm finding a J. Moores & Sons (the company had a number of name changes over its history) out of Denton.
http://londonauctions.co/lot.php?id=165138&login=1
http://www.pittdixon.go-plus.net/denton/moores.htm
Maybe they are the one.

Regardless... beautiful hat in wonderful condition.

 

[Celia]

Thank you, I think you must be right, they most likely meant J. Moores and Sons. Thanks for the information on the company. I did find the link to the auction you posted as well, unfortunately they don't have any detailed pictures of the hat so I couldn't see if it's the same one. I'm not particularly bothered about its value as I'm not planning to sell it. I found it in the back of a junkshop for £5, it's in great condition and I have worn it many times, so it was well worth the money!

 

[mayserwegener]

Good investigative work!

I actually had a Moores "The Tween Hat" Bowler. I think there might be another Moores on this thread.

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/the-bowler-or-derby-hat.32818/page-26#post-1091108

Here is another one.

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/the-bowler-or-derby-hat.32818/page-55#post-1585808

 

[Celia]

Thanks again for the research and links. I looked at some pictures of other Moore's bowler hats online and it seems plausible mine's one too. I like the idea of it being from the 1930s as well.

 

[johnnycanuck]

One thing that drives me nuts about this thread more than any other is the lack of head shots.

Modern production "Robert Hall" hat made by Magill hats here in Canada.
Johnny

 

[Redfokker]

One thing that drives me nuts about this thread more than any other is the lack of head shots.

Modern production "Robert Hall" hat made by Magill hats here in Canada.
Johnny

I agree, it helps to see how the different shapes of stiff felts look on people. You look great in this one BTW.