The BORSALINO BROTHERHOOD

[Forciori]

Dear Steur,

Thank you so much for your kind welcome and your detailed response. I deeply appreciate you taking the time to share your expertise. If I may, I have a couple of follow-up questions that I hope you'll indulge.

Firstly, I apologize if I missed it, but could you explain which specific details in the label helped you identify the brown hat as being from 1972-1976? I'm eager to learn more about these identifying characteristics.

Secondly, and I hope this isn't too basic a question, but regarding date labeling: my red Borsalino is from 1999, as shown on its label. Do you happen to know when Borsalino began including production years on their labels? For instance, given that my gray hat's label style was used from 1984 onwards, I'm curious if the presence or absence of a date might help narrow down its production period.

I'm particularly grateful for the information about the Marque Grand Luxe designation. It certainly explains the exceptional quality of the felt. The chamois/velour finish you mentioned is truly remarkable - I've never felt anything quite like it.

Thank you again for sharing your knowledge and for being so welcoming to a newcomer like myself.

Kind regards.

Welcome to the lounge and the brotherhood. Nice show of hats. The brown one in mahogany (magano) colour is from the early seventies. These labels were in use from 1972 until 1976. The grey one is harder to date because the label is in use from 1984 to this day. But eighties or nineties is probably right.
The brown hat is an Marque Grand Luxe hat, which were of exceptional felt quality and usually with a chamois or velour finish. Not beaver if the hat doesn't say so, but nevertheless felt of the highest quality.

 

[steur]

Dear Steur,

Thank you so much for your kind welcome and your detailed response. I deeply appreciate you taking the time to share your expertise. If I may, I have a couple of follow-up questions that I hope you'll indulge.

Firstly, I apologize if I missed it, but could you explain which specific details in the label helped you identify the brown hat as being from 1972-1976? I'm eager to learn more about these identifying characteristics.

Secondly, and I hope this isn't too basic a question, but regarding date labeling: my red Borsalino is from 1999, as shown on its label. Do you happen to know when Borsalino began including production years on their labels? For instance, given that my gray hat's label style was used from 1984 onwards, I'm curious if the presence or absence of a date might help narrow down its production period.

​

I'm particularly grateful for the information about the Marque Grand Luxe designation. It certainly explains the exceptional quality of the felt. The chamois/velour finish you mentioned is truly remarkable - I've never felt anything quite like it.

Thank you again for sharing your knowledge and for being so welcoming to a newcomer like myself.

Kind regards.

What we know of the production of Borsalinos comes from cataloguing all the labels of the hats posted here and elsewhere and comparing the type of label to the dates that are on some of the hats (usually behind the sweatband - German hatshops seemed to do this routinely). All the colours, finishes, models and cell types can be found in this post:
https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/the-borsalino-brotherhood.13133/post-3148409

For a while we thought that the first two digits op the number upper right of the modern labels, like the one below corresponded with the year of production.

This turned out not to be true. If there is any clue to the year of production in this code, we haven't figured out how that would work. So other than a separate label, receipt or pricetag with a date on it on the red hat, the production year of 1999 can't be deducted from this label.

The label on the brown hat is of the "rounded label with the colour name" type:

We know this only to appear from 1972 until 1976. After that the dateable labels turn up, where the first two numbers in the upper right do correspond with the production year. Recognizable by the hyphen between the first numbers and the rest of them. Like this:

The lasted from 1976 until 1983. No earlier or later examples have been documented.

So in short (or rather long) there is no way to narrow down the production year of the grey one further. Some would hazard a guess based on the style of the hat, but I would say that is about as reliable as using a dowsing rod. Borsalino keeps some of its mysteries to itself...

 

[Pellie]

Borsalino Dolfosan 33 or 38, can't read it very well. Color Bismuto. Very nice and soft felt. Condition of the felt is in mint condition. The lining inside is dirty. Overall a very nice Borsalino. I think it's late 50's, early 60's.

 

[Forciori]

What we know of the production of Borsalinos comes from cataloguing all the labels of the hats posted here and elsewhere and comparing the type of label to the dates that are on some of the hats (usually behind the sweatband - German hatshops seemed to do this routinely). All the colours, finishes, models and cell types can be found in this post:
https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/the-borsalino-brotherhood.13133/post-3148409

For a while we thought that the first two digits op the number upper right of the modern labels, like the one below corresponded with the year of production.

View attachment 681452

This turned out not to be true. If there is any clue to the year of production in this code, we haven't figured out how that would work. So other than a separate label, receipt or pricetag with a date on it on the red hat, the production year of 1999 can't be deducted from this label.

The label on the brown hat is of the "rounded label with the colour name" type:
View attachment 681453
We know this only to appear from 1972 until 1976. After that the dateable labels turn up, where the first two numbers in the upper right do correspond with the production year. Recognizable by the hyphen between the first numbers and the rest of them. Like this:
View attachment 681455
The lasted from 1976 until 1983. No earlier or later examples have been documented.

So in short (or rather long) there is no way to narrow down the production year of the grey one further. Some would hazard a guess based on the style of the hat, but I would say that is about as reliable as using a dowsing rod. Borsalino keeps some of its mysteries to itself...

Thank you for your thorough analysis and for sharing your findings. I had assumed that the interpretation of the first two digits was a well-established fact, given how widely it has been disseminated. However, it has now become evident that this understanding is not as definitive as I had previously believed.

I appreciate your efforts in clarifying these details and sincerely value your dedication.

All my best.

 

[steur]

Let me take you on a little journey which could turn everything we thought we knew about Borsalino labels and dating hats on it head. First let me present the hats I found that had me wondering if it was all wrong. If I present evidence that confirms the hypothesis, I should also present evidence that contradicts it (even if I am reluctant to do so).

First one is a fedora in Alpestre colour. No model name on the label, which seems to be the cerrated label with the straight sides. Sold as a coffin box hat from Cambini, Firenze. That would all place the hat in the 1961-1972 time frame. However on the hat an OPS label can be seen, which we know was only in use from 1951-1953. What?! Ten years before they were supposed to have appeared, this label shows up?

Second example. Maybe less convincing. Let me explain.
Borsalino backbow fedora in plumbeo colour. Model Wysca38 (which is a new model by the way). Cerrated label with three sides cerrated, which is the earlier version of the label. The hypothesis is that these occur between 1954 and 1960. Now it could of course be that this is an early example right on the edge of 1953-1954. Who knows? It's Borsalino after all.

Last example. I will need another post because I've run out of room for pics.

 

[steur]

Let's see if we can get this to some sort of conclusion. But first the last hat in this series.

It was this one that had me questioning my questioning. Homburg export qualität gran lusso in black. No model name and the cerrated label with the straight sides, so again what we think from the period 1961-1972.

Now the keen eyed members here have already spotted who is offering up these hats for sale on Ebay. It was only with this last one that the red flags started to appear. Should have been sooner, I know, but who wouldn't trust dads' and granddads' collection, right?
That homburg was not intended for the American market, but for the German market. The "export qualität" was specifically for Germany and the retailer is also German. So why would it have an OPS label?
Another red flag is the coffin box folder, which wouldn't have been included in the hatbox with which it is displayed. Third red flag is that all the OPS labels are exactly the same:
Borsalino
OPS-Sec 43-CPR7
Price $20

Now we know that the Cambini coffin box hats were cheaper than that: in the folder they range from $11 to $14.
All are sold as 40's or early 50's hats. Also I believe that the "export qualität" appeared later than the OPS period.
Could it be that the OPS label was used by the seller to prop up that claim of the age of the hats and justify the asking price?
Anyway, here it is. Make of it what you will, but for now I will not adjust the hypothesis on the labels relating to the age of the hats.

 

[BobHufford]

Could it be that the OPS label was used by the seller to prop up that claim of the age of the hats and justify the asking price?

Wouldn’t be surprised.

 

[AbbaDatDeHat]

Let's see if we can get this to some sort of conclusion. But first the last hat in this series.

It was this one that had me questioning my questioning. Homburg export qualität gran lusso in black. No model name and the cerrated label with the straight sides, so again what we think from the period 1961-1972.

View attachment 685745

View attachment 685739

View attachment 685740

View attachment 685741

View attachment 685742

View attachment 685743

View attachment 685744

Now the keen eyed members here have already spotted who is offering up these hats for sale on Ebay. It was only with this last one that the red flags started to appear. Should have been sooner, I know, but who woudn't trust dads' and granddads' collection, right?
That homburg was not intended for the American market, but for the German market. The "export qualität" was specifically for German and the retailer is also German. So why would it have an OPS label?
Another red flag is the coffin box folder, which wouldn't have been included in the hatbox with which it is displayed. Third red flag is that all the OPS labels are exactly the same:
Borsalino
OPS-Sec 43-CPR7
Price $20

Now we know that the Cambini coffin box hats were cheaper than that: in the folder they range from $11 to $14.
All are sold as 40's or early 50's hats. Also I believe that the "export qualität" appeared later than the OPS period.
Could it be that the OPS label was used by the seller to prop up that claim of the age of the hats and justify the asking price?
Anyway, here it is. Make of it what you will, but for now I will not adjust the hypothesis on the labels relating to the age of the hats.

Don’t change a thing Stefan!

We’ve all seen the shenanigans from that seller with a continuum of lies and down right BS that ANYTHING out of “Dad’s” mouth only supports the saying “once a liar always a liar”. Even if it’s truth.
Fruit of a poisonous tree.

He didn’t cross that bridge once, he collects tolls at it.
Only a fool gains wisdom from a liar. Sadly, they are out there but you are not one of them.
You ARE Mr. Borsalino.
Don’t change a thing Stefan!
B

 

[steur]

Don’t change a thing Stefan!

We’ve all seen the shenanigans from that seller with a continuum of lies and down right BS that ANYTHING out of “Dad’s” mouth only supports the saying “once a liar always a liar”. Even if it’s truth.
Fruit of a poisonous tree.

He didn’t cross that bridge once, he collects tolls at it.
Only a fool gains wisdom from a liar. Sadly, they are out there but you are not one of them.
You ARE Mr. Borsalino.
Don’t change a thing Stefan!
B

Thank you, Bowen. Oddities and inconsistencies can occur, but this just seems "off" to me. But it's good to have this documented.

 

[AbbaDatDeHat]

Thank you, Bowen. Oddities and inconsistencies can occur, but this just seems "off" to me. But it's good to have this documented.

Stefan, oddities and inconsistencies would be a compliment to that seller.
I used to watch his stuff for humor just to see what degree of BSism he would spew. Wrong liners, wildly wrong ages, on and on.
I’m convinced he cobbles together some hats to “build” whatever deathbed/dead, nonexistent Dad/Grandad whispered on his way to Hat Heaven.
He’s always kinda fantasy fun to discuss around here though.
B

Ps: your weekly hats…always the Berteil

 

[steur]

Stefan, oddities and inconsistencies would be a compliment to that seller.
I used to watch his stuff for humor just to see what degree of BSism he would spew. Wrong liners, wildly wrong ages, on and on.
I’m convinced he cobbles together some hats to “build” whatever deathbed/dead, nonexistent Dad/Grandad whispered on his way to Hat Heaven.
He’s always kinda fantasy fun to discuss around here though.
B

Ps: your weekly hats…always the Berteil

The Berteil...yes, I should dig that one out again.

 

[Daniele Tanto]

Let me take you on a little journey which could turn everything we thought we knew about Borsalino labels and dating hats on it head. First let me present the hats I found that had me wondering if it was all wrong. If I present evidence that confirms the hypothesis, I should also present evidence that contradicts it (even if I am reluctant to do so).

I do not believe that these examples are illustrative in reading and approximating the production date of the Borsalino. The "Steur system" is credible because by reading the paper labels of the hats and comparing them with catalogues, advertisements and anything else, the provenance of the Borsalino hats over time can be recognized quite faithfully. Therefore we continue with our industrial archaeology.
In the hats presented by the seller, who I don't know and don't even want to know, there are evident signs of an "enrichment" of the origin and dating of the hats which lead to obvious contradictions.
Do we want to discuss it? For my part, it's a firm no. It's not worth it.
Some help in disarranging the papers for the dating is also the work of Borsalino who has often started to confuse the data. Countless times I have reported inconsistencies regarding the Borsalinos I have and have had. I don't want to return to topics already discussed, but one thing is certain, at least in my eyes: production for Europe differs substantially from that produced for the United States. My evaluations are born from this data, despite the fact that many enthusiasts are fooled by descriptions bordering on historical science fiction, if it ever exists.
Having said this we can continue with the archeology of Borsalino production

 

[Mighty44]

Let's see if we can get this to some sort of conclusion. But first the last hat in this series.

It was this one that had me questioning my questioning. Homburg export qualität gran lusso in black. No model name and the cerrated label with the straight sides, so again what we think from the period 1961-1972.

View attachment 685745

View attachment 685739

View attachment 685740

View attachment 685741

View attachment 685742

View attachment 685743

View attachment 685744

Now the keen eyed members here have already spotted who is offering up these hats for sale on Ebay. It was only with this last one that the red flags started to appear. Should have been sooner, I know, but who wouldn't trust dads' and granddads' collection, right?
That homburg was not intended for the American market, but for the German market. The "export qualität" was specifically for Germany and the retailer is also German. So why would it have an OPS label?
Another red flag is the coffin box folder, which wouldn't have been included in the hatbox with which it is displayed. Third red flag is that all the OPS labels are exactly the same:
Borsalino
OPS-Sec 43-CPR7
Price $20

Now we know that the Cambini coffin box hats were cheaper than that: in the folder they range from $11 to $14.
All are sold as 40's or early 50's hats. Also I believe that the "export qualität" appeared later than the OPS period.
Could it be that the OPS label was used by the seller to prop up that claim of the age of the hats and justify the asking price?
Anyway, here it is. Make of it what you will, but for now I will not adjust the hypothesis on the labels relating to the age of the hats.

That guy is the worst. Thanks for documenting.

 

[mayserwegener]

German market Borsalino Soft and Stiff Felt Hats are very consistent regarding quality type which you don't see elsewhere. For example "Qualità Superiore" is consistent from cell label Echter Borsalinos to Export Qualität Echter Borsalinos to Export Qualität Borsalinos (and many of these hats are some the highest quality posted here on the FL). The only exception to Qualità Superiore I have encountered is a Echter Borsalino "Nutria". Due to occasional date stamping it's possible to have some idea on dating based on paper labels.

Echter Borsalinos with Cell Labels = Up to mid to later 1930s.

Echter Borsalinos with Echter Borsalino on left side of paper label with individual size stamp = later 1930s up to mid to later 1940s.

Echter Borsalinos with Echter Borsalino on left side + size = mid to later 1940s to mid 1950s.

Export Qualität Echter Borsalinos = Mid 1950s to later 1950s.

Export Qualität Borsalinos late 1950s to early 1980s. Based on changes in paper label types + date stamping it's possible to come up with a pretty good idea dating for Export Qualität Borsalinos.

This only applies to German market Borsalino hats.