The BORSALINO BROTHERHOOD

[steur]

Well, to add a bit to the discussion wether or not the thin ribbon and wide brim is something you see in Europe here's what I can say. There are Borsalino hats on the European market with a thin ribbon and wider brim (or at least there used to be), but the style is quite rare in my experience. Usually the hats are mid- to wider-ribbon over here. I think it's to do with the more western look thin ribbons and wider brims present. It's a look that apparently didn't do too well on the European market. "Wide" brim is a relative measure by the way: the brims on the hats below are between 6 and 7 cm.
Top to bottom: borsalino faunosca, borsalino suprema and borsalino suprema dattero. These are the colours and felt qualities: the Borsalino hats in Europe don't have model names. That is something the brand only does for the American market.

 

[Bob Roberts]

Well, to add a bit to the discussion wether or not the thin ribbon and wide brim is something you see in Europe here's what I can say. There are Borsalino hats on the European market with a thin ribbon and wider brim (or at least there used to be), but the style is quite rare in my experience. Usually the hats are mid- to wider-ribbon over here. I think it's to do with the more western look thin ribbons and wider brims present. It's a look that apparently didn't do too well on the European market. "Wide" brim is a relative measure by the way: the brims on the hats below are between 6 and 7 cm.
Top to bottom: borsalino faunosca, borsalino suprema and borsalino suprema dattero. These are the colours and felt qualities: the Borsalino hats in Europe don't have model names. That is something the brand only does for the American market.


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Yes relatively wider brims and thinner ribbons but as Daniele suggests I'm noticing different crown blocks appearing a bit shorter and less boxy.

 

[steur]

Yes relatively wider brims and thinner ribbons but as Daniele suggests I'm noticing different crown blocks appearing a bit shorter and less boxy.

True that. The reason could be that for the American market Boralino stayed closer to the western style and for the European market the crown-style resembles the Trachten hats (lo crowns with a lot of taper) more.

 

[Windsock8e]

Well, to add a bit to the discussion wether or not the thin ribbon and wide brim is something you see in Europe here's what I can say. There are Borsalino hats on the European market with a thin ribbon and wider brim (or at least there used to be), but the style is quite rare in my experience. Usually the hats are mid- to wider-ribbon over here. I think it's to do with the more western look thin ribbons and wider brims present. It's a look that apparently didn't do too well on the European market. "Wide" brim is a relative measure by the way: the brims on the hats below are between 6 and 7 cm.
Top to bottom: borsalino faunosca, borsalino suprema and borsalino suprema dattero. These are the colours and felt qualities: the Borsalino hats in Europe don't have model names. That is something the brand only does for the American market.


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That is very informative, thank you!

I tend to agree with @Bob Roberts that the the crown is less boxy than what is seen in the US, although no less elegant. This also appears to be the case with contemporary English hats such as Locke or Christies with tapered, lower crowns.

 

[Windsock8e]

That is very informative, thank you!

I tend to agree with @Bob Roberts that the the crown is less boxy than what is seen in the US, although no less elegant. This also appears to be the case with contemporary English hats such as Locke or Christies with tapered, lower crowns.

 

[moontheloon]

I could never get into the more European style blocked Borsalinos ... or any other maker for that matter ...

they look great on Daniele ... look silly on me

I guess I'm just American through and through .. Buffalo Wings to hats

 

[Bob Roberts]

True that. The reason could be that for the American market Boralino stayed closer to the western style and for the European market the crown-style resembles the Trachten hats (lo crowns with a lot of taper) more.

It's just a traditional European style though I've noticed many of Mayserwegener German hats have really nice taller, boxy, straight sided crowns.

 

[Daniele Tanto]

True that. The reason could be that for the American market Boralino stayed closer to the western style and for the European market the crown-style resembles the Trachten hats (lo crowns with a lot of taper) more.

May I say that this is true after the WWII. Before the hats fashion in shape and brims are totally different for Borsalino and all the Italians and European hats producers. Most of the shapes with large brim arrived with the US cultural influence after the WWII.
During the first fifty years of the 1900 what is really astounding is to see now the differences of the "national schools of hatters" in construction, finishes, felts and models.
Borsalino played a fundamental role, but this is another story

 

[mayserwegener]

You do not see much of a difference between European and American Soft Felt Dress Hats up to the 1920s. They were mostly brim up hats worn with center crease and most had some type of curled brim.

For example this late 1920s Echter Borsalino

Here is a less formal / sporty (becomes more acceptable) Snap Brim Echter Borsalino from the later 1930s. This form is fairly typical of hats of this type + time period in Central Europe. (Update: If you look at the above photos you will see a similar style hat in the late 1930s JHS ad stand in the right background.)

C. G. Wilke "Bürstel Electra" from the same time period.

Of course this is just one form. In the same time period you see different forms of less formal Soft Felt Snap Brim Hats. For example this Soft Felt Snap Brim Borsalino sold in Bulgaria.

I haven't come across any German or Austrian made Snap Brim Soft Felt Hats with American Western influence until the 1950s. For example this mid to later 1950s Stetson - Mayser Stratoliner that belongs to Manfred. Mayser acquired the Stetson licence for Germany in 1954.

 

[moontheloon]

You do not see much of a difference between European and American Soft Felt Dress Hats up to the 1920s. They were mostly brim up hats worn with center crease and most had some type of curled brim.

For example this late 1920s Echter Borsalino

this is one of the most beautiful hats I have ever seen

would this be considered a Lords hat ?

 

[mayserwegener]

this is one of the most beautiful hats I have ever seen

would this be considered a Lords hat ?

Thanks! This is one of a great three hat find.

In this time period (Germany) it would be considered a Fashion Hat / Mode Hut. I have never come across the terms Homburg or Lords Hat in German or Austrian Hat Trade news papers or catalogs. You may see a model name listed in a catalog or advertisement but it's specific to that hat (I don't believe I have seen a model name on a hat pre 1950s). In this time period Fashion Hat / Mode Hut applied to all Soft Felt Dress Hats and most were Brim Up Hats with some type of Curled Brim. This Echter Borsalino is a very high price point hat so owned by a man with a lot of money and worn with similar price point clothing (suite and outer coat).

Here is different Echter Borsalino (same time period and probably same original owner) from the same find. It's possible to snap the brim but it was designed to be worn Brim Up. It would also be called a Fashion Hat / Mode Hut.

 

[KarlCrow]

^ *faints

 

[mayserwegener]

Thanks!

Pre WWII there was so many different forms, dimensions and finishes it's really hard to make sweeping statements. I think I have a pretty good idea of what was available in Central Europe based on trade papers and catalogs (the higher end Soft Felt Dress Hats tend to survive but I have been lucky to find some lower price point ones). Also Stiff Felts were still very popular in Central Europe.

 

[mayserwegener]

This Echter Borsalino from probably the later 1950s might be said to have American Western elements. From the front view you see a good bit of tapper even with what appears to be a Tear Drop crease and generous dimensions. This hat is from the Gotisches Haus (Gothic House) Bad Homburg, Germany hat collection archives which I was able to photograph back January 2016.

 

[mayserwegener]

Here are the Soft Felts from an early 1900s G.B.Borsalino Fu Lazzaro & C. (the Other Borsalino) prospectus (Italian, French, English, German, Spanish) from the Gotisches Haus (Gothic House) Bad Homburg , Germany collection.

Also some Stiff Felts

 

[mayserwegener]

Here is Albertini 1817 Intra "Paticulars" catalog probably from the 1930s from the Gotisches Haus (Gothic House) Bad Homburg, Germany hat collection. You can see the various styles / forms and finishes of Soft Felt Hats they offered. I think it's worth taking a look because it shows a wide wide range of Italian Soft Felts.

http://germanaustrianhats.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/233-albertini-1817-intra-catalog/

 

[moontheloon]

Thanks! This is one of a great three hat find.

In this time period (Germany) it would be considered a Fashion Hat / Mode Hut. I have never come across the terms Homburg or Lords Hat in German or Austrian Hat Trade news papers or catalogs. You may see a model name listed in a catalog or advertisement but it's specific to that hat (I don't believe I have seen a model name on a hat pre 1950s). In this time period Fashion Hat / Mode Hut applied to all Soft Felt Dress Hats and most were Brim Up Hats with some type of Curled Brim. This Echter Borsalino is a very high price point hat so owned by a man with a lot of money and worn with similar price point clothing (suite and outer coat).

Here is different Echter Borsalino (same time period and probably same original owner) from the same find. It's possible to snap the brim but it was designed to be worn Brim Up. It would also be called a Fashion Hat / Mode Hut.

Quick question

Is "Lords" something that would even appear in a catalog or is it sort of an understood style that may not be mentioned?

and isn't it a term that originated in the UK ?

honest questions... this is a hat term that eludes me


Sent from my space aged handheld communication device and universal translator

 

[belfastboy]

Thanks! This is one of a great three hat find.

In this time period (Germany) it would be considered a Fashion Hat / Mode Hut. I have never come across the terms Homburg or Lords Hat in German or Austrian Hat Trade news papers or catalogs. You may see a model name listed in a catalog or advertisement but it's specific to that hat (I don't believe I have seen a model name on a hat pre 1950s). In this time period Fashion Hat / Mode Hut applied to all Soft Felt Dress Hats and most were Brim Up Hats with some type of Curled Brim. This Echter Borsalino is a very high price point hat so owned by a man with a lot of money and worn with similar price point clothing (suite and outer coat).

Here is different Echter Borsalino (same time period and probably same original owner) from the same find. It's possible to snap the brim but it was designed to be worn Brim Up. It would also be called a Fashion Hat / Mode Hut.

I can only drool in envy!!!

 

[mayserwegener]

Quick question

Is "Lords" something that would even appear in a catalog or is it sort of an understood style that may not be mentioned?

and isn't it a term that originated in the UK ?

honest questions... this is a hat term that eludes me


Sent from my space aged handheld communication device and universal translator

It's probably an English / UK term but that would need to be verified. I have only seen passed along information posted here and not any documents from the time period. There isn't anyone here that specializes in English Hat Industry history or specializes in collecting English Hat Companies which is a shame. The Soft Felt Hat style (brim binding or no brim binding) came from Continental Europe but I haven't seen the name used in any Continental European Hat Trade newspaper or Hat Company catalog. It would just be consider a Curled Brim Soft Felt Fashion Hat.

 

[moontheloon]

It's probably an English / UK term but that would need to be verified. There isn't anyone here that specializes in English Hat Industry history or specializes in collecting English Hat Companies which is a shame. The Soft Felt Hat style (brim binding or no brim binding) came from Continental Europe but I haven't seen the name used in any Continental European Hat Trade newspaper or Hat Company catalog. It would just be consider a Curled Brim Soft Felt Fashion Hat.

Great info
Thank you


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