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I'll Lock Up
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WineGuy said:Thanks Bantam Man, do you by chance have a picture of what a forties liner should look like? I agree with you about the sweat band, let's go on the assumption that it is original and not a retro fit, have you seen examples of Borsalino's that had no tags at all like mine and rlk's? I'm not challenging you, just trying to get visual reference for my own education.
WineGuy said:Well I just spoke with Neal Shudde and he could not make a definitive estimate of age. He did confirm the following:
a. Shudde has sold Borsalino since the 20's
b. Besides selling new Italian made Borsalino's with the Shudde logo, much of their business has been doing renovations/restorations since the 20's so it is possible the sweat band was installed on the hat by them(thus no tags) and it could have been from another hat shop such as Rogers Peet.
c. Neals best guess was that the brim at 2 3/8 is more typical of very late 50's to 60's style hats and would have been "not typical" for a 40's hat.
So in conclusion, I think the Brotherhood should start a project to publish a DB of Borsalino details such as a library of liner styles, sweatband styles and hat band styles etc.
WineGuy said:Hi rlk,
Neals point was that a 40's Borsalino typically would have a brim width similar to yours, mine is 2 3/8 which he said was more popular in the 60's. He did not say conclusively that my hat was not 40's. Other than what the seller represented to you, are you satisfied your Borsalino is indeed 40's?
rlk said:Not really sure at all. Borsalino seems to have made this hat style continuously from late 1930's-1940's to the present. I don't think we can date these all that precisely. I wouldn't be confident beyond >WWII-early 60's. It demonstrates the pitfalls of estimates with no documentation. Period consistency is overestimated. Same goes for unreeded sweats and taped seams(not true for all manufacturers). Its unreliable to date Borsalino's (or Cavanaghs)that have somewhat generic liners other than particularly distinctive styles that had brief popularity.
If you look at the thread Dating Borsalino Liner Logoshttp://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=3314&page=1 people seem to date the hats with this liner as 40's and occasionally 50's. My only conclusion is that I can't make a definite conclusion.
Dinerman said:I'd say late '50s or 1960s on that one, wineguy. Definitely not '40s, and not new.
It's very common for boxes to get mismatched over the years- older hats in newer boxes, newer hats in older boxes, a different brand hat in a different brand box. The information on that box, other than perhaps the owner's name, doesn't relate to that borsalino.
Aureliano said:Maybe he'll elaborate a bit more. I'm curious now!
Dinerman said:I have a lot of dobbs boxes and not very many dobbs, and those I do have I didn't get in those boxes. I have boxes for brands I don't own. I've bought '30s hats in '60s square boxes. I probably only get a box that seems original a quarter of the time or less.
Dinerman said:Aah. Alright. I had a borsalino with the same color sweatband and liner that had 1960s dated newspapers under the sweatband.
Also, going by the borsalinos I've owned and what I've seen here, it seems that this darker brown sweatband came after ones with the more russet colored sweatband, which seem to date from the '50s, but before the really dark brown/black sweatbands that you see on later '60s and '70s hats. There is some overlap, though, and depending on the model and if it was an import or a European hat, you'll see variation.
Sweatband markings stayed essentially the same from the '30s onward, though they did have english language ones for the American market, which this one has.
The design of the hat, outwards, is a bit difficult to date, it doesn't really scream any particular year, the thin ribboned styling was around for a long time, though the brim width does seem a bit narrower than I've seen on older examples.
As this is a hat made for the American market, going by the sweatband color and leather texture and by the liner design, I'd say that at the oldest, this one's late '50s, and that it most likely dates from the '60s, was sold at Shudde bros, not renovated there, and that the box was originally from a different hat entirely.