The BORSALINO BROTHERHOOD

[carouselvic]

 

[Bantam Man]

Borsalino

WineGuy,

Feel free to ask! Although I do not have pictures at hand at the moment.

The generation of Borsalino's pre-dating your hat often had liners covered with transparant yellow foil. The logo's or emblems were more 'complex' than the oval one on your hat and sometimes were printed in multiple colours. Also, the use of the colour gold on liners was introduced later on.

I am not sure whether I understand the question about the sweatband. (Apologies, I'm not a native speaker.) Is your question about no-name sweatbands? This question, at this point, makes me wonder if replacement of sweatbands happened very often, back in those days... It may sound sacrilegious, but perhaps it was more easy to buy a new hat? Also, as hats were subject to fashion back then, not many people will have walked around with old hats with desintegrating sweatbands...

Anyway, nowadays no-name sweatbands are available, via the internet. But I do not know about the situation in previous decades.

I hope this helps!

Thanks Bantam Man, do you by chance have a picture of what a forties liner should look like? I agree with you about the sweat band, let's go on the assumption that it is original and not a retro fit, have you seen examples of Borsalino's that had no tags at all like mine and rlk's? I'm not challenging you, just trying to get visual reference for my own education.

 

[carouselvic]

Post war Borsalinos made for the American market were most all non-reeded sweatbands at least through the 70's. Hats made for the European market were mostly of reeded variety and were marked much differently than their American line.

 

[WineGuy]

Re: sweatband

Hi Bantam Man,

My reference to the sweat band is that is has no labels such as a size tag or a manufacturers product code strip that is usually found adhered to the inside of the sweatband or the reed. This hat shows no signs that any labels were ever attached or glued on.

Unfortunately, currently, there is no consensus among the Brotherhood, some say 40's, some say late 50's and one PM said modern.

Is there any other photo angle I can post that would give more information?

 

[Dinerman]

I'd say late '50s or 1960s on that one, wineguy. Definitely not '40s, and not new.

It's very common for boxes to get mismatched over the years- older hats in newer boxes, newer hats in older boxes, a different brand hat in a different brand box. The information on that box, other than perhaps the owner's name, doesn't relate to that borsalino.

 

[Aureliano]

I'd go with what Dinerman said. The more I look at your hat the more it fits the late 50s frame.

 

[WineGuy]

Re: Shudde Borsalino

I'm hoping to get a call back from Neal Shudde, the owner and grand son of the founder, sometime today in hopes of picking his brain about the dating of the hat. I'll post it as soon as it happens.

 

[WineGuy]

The decision....

Well I just spoke with Neal Shudde and he could not make a definitive estimate of age. He did confirm the following:

a. Shudde has sold Borsalino since the 20's

b. Besides selling new Italian made Borsalino's with the Shudde logo, much of their business has been doing renovations/restorations since the 20's so it is possible the sweat band was installed on the hat by them(thus no tags) and it could have been from another hat shop such as Rogers Peet.

c. Neals best guess was that the brim at 2 3/8 is more typical of very late 50's to 60's style hats and would have been "not typical" for a 40's hat.

So in conclusion, I think the Brotherhood should start a project to publish a DB of Borsalino details such as a library of liner styles, sweatband styles and hat band styles etc.

 

[rlk]

Well I just spoke with Neal Shudde and he could not make a definitive estimate of age. He did confirm the following:

a. Shudde has sold Borsalino since the 20's

b. Besides selling new Italian made Borsalino's with the Shudde logo, much of their business has been doing renovations/restorations since the 20's so it is possible the sweat band was installed on the hat by them(thus no tags) and it could have been from another hat shop such as Rogers Peet.

c. Neals best guess was that the brim at 2 3/8 is more typical of very late 50's to 60's style hats and would have been "not typical" for a 40's hat.

So in conclusion, I think the Brotherhood should start a project to publish a DB of Borsalino details such as a library of liner styles, sweatband styles and hat band styles etc.

This doesn't give much info in regards to the liner. The two hats I showed have the same liner. The camel w/ brown has a brim slightly over 2-1/2" with Cavanagh edge and quite a tall crown, fancy bow and 2" sweat. The other(Shudde Bros) has a brim 2-5/8-2-3/4(not perfectly consistent) and a taped seam on the sweatband.

 

[WineGuy]

The decision....

Hi rlk,

Neals point was that a 40's Borsalino typically would have a brim width similar to yours, mine is 2 3/8 which he said was more popular in the 60's. He did not say conclusively that my hat was not 40's. Other than what the seller represented to you, are you satisfied your Borsalino is indeed 40's?

 

[rlk]

Hi rlk,

Neals point was that a 40's Borsalino typically would have a brim width similar to yours, mine is 2 3/8 which he said was more popular in the 60's. He did not say conclusively that my hat was not 40's. Other than what the seller represented to you, are you satisfied your Borsalino is indeed 40's?

Not really sure at all. Borsalino seems to have made this hat style continuously from late 1930's-1940's to the present. I don't think we can date these all that precisely. I wouldn't be confident beyond >WWII-early 60's. It demonstrates the pitfalls of estimates with no documentation. Period consistency is overestimated. Same goes for unreeded sweats and taped seams(not true for all manufacturers). Its unreliable to date Borsalino's (or Cavanaghs)that have somewhat generic liners other than particularly distinctive styles that had brief popularity.

If you look at the thread Dating Borsalino Liner Logoshttp://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=3314&page=1 people seem to date the hats with this liner as 40's and occasionally 50's. My only conclusion is that I can't make a definite conclusion.

 

[ScottF]

Not really sure at all. Borsalino seems to have made this hat style continuously from late 1930's-1940's to the present. I don't think we can date these all that precisely. I wouldn't be confident beyond >WWII-early 60's. It demonstrates the pitfalls of estimates with no documentation. Period consistency is overestimated. Same goes for unreeded sweats and taped seams(not true for all manufacturers). Its unreliable to date Borsalino's (or Cavanaghs)that have somewhat generic liners other than particularly distinctive styles that had brief popularity.

If you look at the thread Dating Borsalino Liner Logoshttp://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=3314&page=1 people seem to date the hats with this liner as 40's and occasionally 50's. My only conclusion is that I can't make a definite conclusion.

My Borsalinos have baffled me as far as age, for all the reasons rlk mentions. I have a '60s Borsalino with 'adjustable' taped sweatband, and I have had four with unreeded sweatbands that range from the '30s to the '60s. I had one positively id'd by the previous owner as from the '60s that I would have sworn was from the '40s, and vice versa. I currently have a reeded one that I would have guessed '40s, but found a modern tag under the sweat. The liners seem almost useless for dating them, because as Besdor pointed out, customers could choose from a book of liners - I assume they kept popular designs around possibly for decades.

I think your best bet is to show very clear pictures and let someone like Dinerman pick up on the subtle differences that others might not have the experience to notice.

 

[WineGuy]

Hi scottf, What other photo angles do you recommend other than what I already posted?

Dinerman...same question?

 

[Aureliano]

I'd say late '50s or 1960s on that one, wineguy. Definitely not '40s, and not new.

It's very common for boxes to get mismatched over the years- older hats in newer boxes, newer hats in older boxes, a different brand hat in a different brand box. The information on that box, other than perhaps the owner's name, doesn't relate to that borsalino.

Maybe he'll elaborate a bit more. I'm curious now!

 

[Dinerman]

Maybe he'll elaborate a bit more. I'm curious now!

I have a lot of dobbs boxes and not very many dobbs, and those I do have I didn't get in those boxes. I have boxes for brands I don't own. I've bought '30s hats in '60s square boxes. I probably only get a box that seems original a quarter of the time or less.

 

[Aureliano]

I have a lot of dobbs boxes and not very many dobbs, and those I do have I didn't get in those boxes. I have boxes for brands I don't own. I've bought '30s hats in '60s square boxes. I probably only get a box that seems original a quarter of the time or less.

Sorry, Dinerman, I didn't mean to say I wanted you to elaborate on the boxes situation but on how you deduced WineGuy's hat was late 50s or 60s.[huh]

 

[Dinerman]

Aah. Alright. I had a borsalino with the same color sweatband and liner that had 1960s dated newspapers under the sweatband.

Also, going by the borsalinos I've owned and what I've seen here, it seems that this darker brown sweatband came after ones with the more russet colored sweatband, which seem to date from the '50s, but before the really dark brown/black sweatbands that you see on later '60s and '70s hats. There is some overlap, though, and depending on the model and if it was an import or a European hat, you'll see variation.
Sweatband markings stayed essentially the same from the '30s onward, though they did have english language ones for the American market, which this one has.

The design of the hat, outwards, is a bit difficult to date, it doesn't really scream any particular year, the thin ribboned styling was around for a long time, though the brim width does seem a bit narrower than I've seen on older examples.

As this is a hat made for the American market, going by the sweatband color and leather texture and by the liner design, I'd say that at the oldest, this one's late '50s, and that it most likely dates from the '60s, was sold at Shudde bros, not renovated there, and that the box was originally from a different hat entirely.

 

[rlk]

Aah. Alright. I had a borsalino with the same color sweatband and liner that had 1960s dated newspapers under the sweatband.

Also, going by the borsalinos I've owned and what I've seen here, it seems that this darker brown sweatband came after ones with the more russet colored sweatband, which seem to date from the '50s, but before the really dark brown/black sweatbands that you see on later '60s and '70s hats. There is some overlap, though, and depending on the model and if it was an import or a European hat, you'll see variation.
Sweatband markings stayed essentially the same from the '30s onward, though they did have english language ones for the American market, which this one has.

The design of the hat, outwards, is a bit difficult to date, it doesn't really scream any particular year, the thin ribboned styling was around for a long time, though the brim width does seem a bit narrower than I've seen on older examples.

As this is a hat made for the American market, going by the sweatband color and leather texture and by the liner design, I'd say that at the oldest, this one's late '50s, and that it most likely dates from the '60s, was sold at Shudde bros, not renovated there, and that the box was originally from a different hat entirely.

Your reasoning seems sound and likely(I'm not disagreeing), but the newspaper is only a minimum age guideline. One could theorize that the original owner would buy a new hat that fit properly and would not be putting newspaper under the sweatband. Or, if it was to absorb sweat that it might be replaced. Of course this is overanalyzing...

 

[Dinerman]

You're absolutely correct, but in most instances I've found that the date on newspapers I've found seems to correspond fairly closely with the suspected date, going by other factors. (This is mainly on American hats, where the dating is a bit easier)

I still stick by my assessment.

WineGuy, you say you're waiting to give positive feedback until you know for sure that this is '40s? If there is a level of difficulty here at pinpointing the exact date, are you expecting the seller to be positive? I don't get the impression that they were trying to misrepresent the hat, just that they made the assumption that the hat and the box they got it in came together originally.

 

[WineGuy]

Hi Dinerman, I've cut and pasted the title of the auction and the sellers description. At worst it was a fraudulent description, at best the seller took a lot of license with the selling points. What kind of feedback would you leave this seller to make the point that the hat is not what was represented and to warn future buyers(many FL members) that they can't trust this sellers descriptions?


(auction title)
MENS BORSALINO ALLESANDRIA FEDORA HAT ORG BOX SZ 7 3/8
(wineguy note: not original box)


FEDORA HAT

SIZE 7 3/8

SHUDDER(sic) BROTHERS

New York

Rich color

Excellent condition

All original paperwork included(wineguy note: not)

with this handsome hat and original hat box
(wineguy note: again, not original box)


For consideration and in memory of C.W.

Information on the history of this hat. It belonged to a self-made millonaire buisiness man , now deceased, that was in associatation with the Jewish Mafia. His name appears on the receipt. He bought only from the finest stores in Chicago, New York, and Las Vegas.
(wineguy note: Houston?)

This made in Italy by "Original House" Fedro Hat was purchased from the Hampshire House in New York back in the forties.
(wineguy note: Hampshire House was an upscale residence on Central park West, not a store and we all seem to agree the hat is not from the 40's)

He was sent to prison at one point in his life, however,I am not sure what he was sentenced for.

It was after his release from prison that he became a self-made millionaire selling fish bait and tackle.
____________

I sent the seller an email asking for documentation of the above claims, obviously the original owners history is a moot point, have not heard back yet, tomorrow I'm leaving neutral feedback with warning to buyers to verify sellers claims...does that sound reasonable?