The Axis Powers

[Lincsong]

Germany, Japan and Italy. All three were aligned politically but which two are more closely aligned ideologically?

 

[geo]

Germany, Japan and Italy had totally different purposes, with each country pursuing its own interests. Germany and Japan divided the world between them, Germany in Europe and Japan in Asia. Italy wanted to recreate the Roman Empire centered on the Mediterranean and North Africa. Ideologically, Italian Fascism was closer to German Nazism, but in fact I think that in their actions, the Germans and Japanese were closer.

Other European Axis countries were Hungary, Romania, Finland. Not sure if Bulgaria wasn't one too. Spain, although a Fascist country, remained neutral. Any others?

 

[feltfan]

Other European Axis countries were Hungary, Romania, Finland. Not sure if Bulgaria wasn't one too. Spain, although a Fascist country, remained neutral. Any others?

Spain was not neutral. They provided the infamous
Condor legion to fight with the Nazis. They also
provided critical supplies to the Nazis, including wool
for uniforms. This was a huge sacrifice for Spain,
which was ruined and experiencing widespread
deprivation after their (German and Italian-suppressed)
failed revolution. The USA conveniently forgot all this in
exchange for military bases in the 1950s. It will always
be a black mark on our history that we did not follow up
in Spain and Portugal after Germany fell.

I suppose Austria, Czechoslovakia, and Poland were
annexed, so they don't quite count.
Many would say that Switzerland was effectively an
Axis country for all the support they lent the Nazis in
exchange for not getting overrun. Some might include
Argentina, too...

 

[Katt in Hat]

Bulgaria was an Axis member but with a difference.

They protected all their Jews. So did the Danes, to the best of their ability.

Ah, the French...Zut alors! :kick:

 

["Doc" Devereux]

Spain was not neutral. They provided the infamous Condor legion to fight with the Nazis.

I can't speak to the logistical points, and never discuss politics in fora such as these, but I was under the impression that the Condor Legion was sent by Hitler to assist Franco rather than the other way round. I'm certainly sure that Werner Moelders and Adolf Galland served in such a capacity, and Galland mentions it in his autobiography.

Was there a reciprocal arrangement of which I was not aware for Franco to supply recruits to the Luftwaffe?

 

[Vladimir Berkov]

The Condor Legion was a Luftwaffe unit so far as I can remember, sent by the Germans to Spain in the 30s as sort of a testbed for their aircraft, crews and tactics. The Italians and Russians also sent planes and crews for the same purpose. The Germans and Italians tested out some of the bombing tactics against civilian cities that became such a hallmark of WW2.

I am not sure what Spain contributed in terms of manpower to fight on the fronts, but they did supply a whole lot of material and weapons. Spanish pistols like the Astra were pretty commonly found among various German services, particularly ones like the Waffen-SS which often used weapons outside of normal manufacturing supply factories.

 

[Salv]

Spain was not neutral. They provided the infamous
Condor legion to fight with the Nazis. They also
provided critical supplies to the Nazis, including wool
for uniforms. This was a huge sacrifice for Spain,
which was ruined and experiencing widespread
deprivation after their (German and Italian-suppressed)
failed revolution. The USA conveniently forgot all this in
exchange for military bases in the 1950s. It will always
be a black mark on our history that we did not follow up
in Spain and Portugal after Germany fell.

I'm not sure that I totally agree with your assessment there. In February 1936 the Spanish electorate voted into power the broadly left-wing Popular Front coalition. The Germans and Italians aided the July 1936 right wing rebellion which was made up of the fascist Falange, pro-Monarchists, ultra-Catholic Carlists, much of the military, and landowners and industrialists, all of whom were unhappy that the Spanish working classes were finally having some say in their own future. The Germans and Italians aided a rebellion against a democratically elected government, not against a left-wing revolution.

Also the Condor Legion was in fact German not Spanish, formed in October 1936 to fight in Spain following a suggestion by Lieutenant Colonel Walther Warlimont, who was the German military commander in Spain and an adviser to Franco.

It would have been difficult for the US, or for Britain, to have continued the war against Spain in 1945, as they had, along with France, colluded in depriving the elected Popular Front government of aid during the Spanish Civil War. Those three western democracies all agreed to a policy of non-intervention where Spain was concerned, giving aid to neither side. Germany and Italy had also signed the non-intervention treaty, but completely ignored it, and although there was plenty of proof that Germany and Italy were still sending planes, tanks and manpower to Spain nothing was done to stop them. Meanwhile the US, Britain and France refused to sell arms and food to the government, forcing the government to turn to Soviet Russia for aid. International law allowed an elected government to buy arms from whoever could sell them, but the western democracies refused to abide by this, citing the non-intervention policy and not wanting to show favour to either side. That is the real black mark on our collective histories where Spain is concerned. A democratically elected government attempted to buy arms from other democracies, to defend itself against an armed rebellion, and was refused.

By not selling arms to the government, and turning a blind eye to arms sales to the rebels by the Germans and Italians, not to mention the presence of German and Italian soldiers and airmen, the US, UK and France were to some degree responsible for the success of the rebellion. It has been argued that the democracies felt that a left-wing government in Spain would not have served their purposes. Once the Soviets were allowed to influence the Spanish government part way through the Civil War, thanks to their arms sales, there was no way the US and the UK would allow a Soviet-influenced government to remain in western Europe. Allowing Spain to remain a fascist dictatorship worked in their favour.

 

[feltfan]

^condor^blue

The Condor Legion was a Luftwaffe unit.

Sorry- senior moment.

I meant the Blue Division, who were Spaniards who
served with Hitler's troops against the USSR.

 

[feltfan]

I'm not sure that I totally agree with your assessment there. In February 1936 the Spanish electorate voted into power the broadly left-wing Popular Front coalition. The Germans and Italians aided the July 1936 right wing rebellion which was made up of the fascist Falange, pro-Monarchists, ultra-Catholic Carlists, much of the military, and landowners and industrialists, all of whom were unhappy that the Spanish working classes were finally having some say in their own future. The Germans and Italians aided a rebellion against a democratically elected government, not against a left-wing revolution.

True, but you forget the Asturian miner's uprising
and other like events. Groups like the CNT/FAI
were not pro-government, either. And then there
were (are) the regional issues. Both revolution
and left government were brewing. The government
was not effective in producing land reform.

It would have been difficult for the US, or for Britain, to have continued the war against Spain in 1945, as they had, along with France, colluded in depriving the elected Popular Front government of aid during the Spanish Civil War. Those three western democracies all agreed to a policy of non-intervention where Spain was concerned, giving aid to neither side. Germany and Italy had also signed the non-intervention treaty, but completely ignored it, and although there was plenty of proof that Germany and Italy were still sending planes, tanks and manpower to Spain nothing was done to stop them. Meanwhile the US, Britain and France refused to sell arms and food to the government, forcing the government to turn to Soviet Russia for aid. International law allowed an elected government to buy arms from whoever could sell them, but the western democracies refused to abide by this, citing the non-intervention policy and not wanting to show favour to either side. That is the real black mark on our collective histories where Spain is concerned. A democratically elected government attempted to buy arms from other democracies, to defend itself against an armed rebellion, and was refused.

By not selling arms to the government, and turning a blind eye to arms sales to the rebels by the Germans and Italians, not to mention the presence of German and Italian soldiers and airmen, the US, UK and France were to some degree responsible for the success of the rebellion. It has been argued that the democracies felt that a left-wing government in Spain would not have served their purposes. Once the Soviets were allowed to influence the Spanish government part way through the Civil War, thanks to their arms sales, there was no way the US and the UK would allow a Soviet-influenced government to remain in western Europe. Allowing Spain to remain a fascist dictatorship worked in their favour.

I'm fine with all that, except to say that given the violations
you mention by the Germans and Italians and given that we
won the war and Spain was very weak, we could very well have
walked in and corrected our error. Cold war politics did, as I said,
intervene, but that is no excuse. And today the seeds we sowed
in Spain, Greece, Iran, and elsewhere in the name of Cold War
realpolitik are bearing fruit.

And now I will bow out...

 

[geo]

About Spain:

Spain was neutral during WW2. They had economic trade with the Germans, and sent an army of volunteers to fight on the Eastern front, which was withdrawn around 1943. However, Spain never allowed German troops to cross Spanish territory in order to invade Gibraltar, nor did they invade Gibraltar themselves.

The Spanish civil war is more complex than the working classes taking power and the Fascists chasing them. When the working classes took power, they set up a regime of terror against anybody who wasn't a worker or peasant. People avoided wearing ties, hats, collars, or anything remotely intellectual or upper class, for fear of being shot in the streets. Churchill justified not taking the side of the Spanish Republic against the Fascists by saying that had he lived in Spain, he would have been shot with his entire family.

A large part of the Republican forces were workers belonging to different Anarchist groups. Their idea of society was self-sufficient villages without control from a central government, were currency would be abolished, production assets collectivised, and basic survival goods would be traded.

The Spanish Republic was far from a uniform force, and there have been two internal wars within the Republican camp, sort of civil-war-within-civil-war.

The Spanish civil war is a fascinating subject, and I think that WW1, the Spanish civil war and WW2 were one long conflict.

 

[Salv]

True, but you forget the Asturian miner's uprising
and other like events. Groups like the CNT/FAI
were not pro-government, either. And then there
were (are) the regional issues. Both revolution
and left government were brewing. The government
was not effective in producing land reform.

Fair points, also there were CNT/UGT strikes in Madrid and Andalucia in June 1936 (after the Popular Front gained power); but I wanted to point out the distinction between an elected government such as the Popular Front and a ruling power put in place by revolution. The Franco-led rebels were fighting an elected government.

 

[geo]

It's not inherently wrong to fight against an elected government, depending on what the government is and does. I wish there were revolutionaries fighting the elected German government during the same period.

 

["Doc" Devereux]

I wish there were revolutionaries fighting the elected German government during the same period.

Like the Widerstand?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_resistance_against_the_Nazi_government

 

[Salv]

The Spanish civil war is more complex than the working classes taking power and the Fascists chasing them. When the working classes took power, they set up a regime of terror against anybody who wasn't a worker or peasant. People avoided wearing ties, hats, collars, or anything remotely intellectual or upper class, for fear of being shot in the streets. Churchill justified not taking the side of the Spanish Republic against the Fascists by saying that had he lived in Spain, he would have been shot with his entire family.

It's an exaggeration to say there was "a regime of terror" against the upper classes prior to the rebellion - certainly in the major Republican held cities, once the war was under way, the upper classes left behind had every reason to disguise who they were, but before the July rebellion violence was very much a two-way street between the right and the left, with the Falange being particularly vicious. In March the Falange shot at the wives and families of political prisoners who were due to be freed by the new government; they tried to assassinate the deputy speaker of the Cortes; they tried to kill Largo Caballero; and in April they machine gunned workers in Madrid, killing three of them and injuring 40.

The left murdered a right-wing Civil Guard officer and his funeral ended with running battles between the Falange and the young socialists. Following the UGT/CNT strike in June hungry workers clashed with police, and Falangists were murdered by CNT members. In tit-for-tat killings just before the rebellion the Falange murdered a left-wing assault guard officer whose friends then found and murdered the right-wing former minister Calvo Sotelo.

 

[Salv]

It's not inherently wrong to fight against an elected government, depending on what the government is and does. I wish there were revolutionaries fighting the elected German government during the same period.

I tend to agree, although that does imply that democracy isn't always the best policy.

 

[Lincsong]

Interesting

This thread has taken a turn I never would have expected. I'm not concerned as I find this course of discussion fascinating. Thanks for all the information regarding the Spanish Civil War. I haven't studied it too much in depth, I should because my ancestral roots are in Andalusia. From what I'm under the impression, the U.S. saw the Spanish Civil War as a fight between two left wing governments and really didn't care who got beat up the most as long as the godless communists (Republic) lost. Franco thought of himself as the last defender of the Roman Catholic Church since France and Austria had become so secularized. He wanted to create a Roman Catholic state in contrast to the Protestant Materialistic U.S. and Britain. After WWII the U.S. figured it would have been easier to deal with Franco, than with someone aligned with the Soviets. The U.S. was worried that if the Soviets overran Western Germany, France would capitulate like a sheet of tin foil and Spain would be needed as a staging ground to launch ground assaults over the Pyrrennes. Keep up the great points so far.

 

[Mycroft]

The Spanish played both sides during the war since Franco got aid from the axis in his Civil War, but agreed to aid the Allies with intelegence and refusing to join the war. List of axis powers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_Powers

 

[scotrace]

From Volume 1, Issue 1 of KEN Magaine, 1938

Ernest Hemingway, on the wisdom of defeating fascism in Europe early and quickly by attacking the Italians in Spain:

"Of the fascist Achilles, now theatening the peace of the world, Mussolini
is the heel. To know him is to understand why Italian fascism is a bully's
bluff, the romantic thinking of a people who want to be heroes but aren't
brave, who want to play soldiers but fear to die, who are terrific in
attack until opposed, and then uncatchable in retreat."

(paraphrasing) 'the Portugese surrender easily enough and flee, but take
away their bicycles, and my money's on the Italians."

 

[Salv]

This thread has taken a turn I never would have expected. I'm not concerned as I find this course of discussion fascinating.

I didn't mean to hijack the thread away from a discussion of the actual Axis powers, but Franco was - although not himself a fascist - heavily reliant on the Axis to win the Civil War.

Thanks for all the information regarding the Spanish Civil War. I haven't studied it too much in depth, I should because my ancestral roots are in Andalusia. From what I'm under the impression, the U.S. saw the Spanish Civil War as a fight between two left wing governments and really didn't care who got beat up the most as long as the godless communists (Republic) lost. Franco thought of himself as the last defender of the Roman Catholic Church since France and Austria had become so secularized. He wanted to create a Roman Catholic state in contrast to the Protestant Materialistic U.S. and Britain. After WWII the U.S. figured it would have been easier to deal with Franco, than with someone aligned with the Soviets. The U.S. was worried that if the Soviets overran Western Germany, France would capitulate like a sheet of tin foil and Spain would be needed as a staging ground to launch ground assaults over the Pyrrennes. Keep up the great points so far.

I agree with most of your points, especially about the US finding it easier to deal with Franco, but it's incorrect to think of the Franco-led rebels as left wing. The Falange were an authoritarian revolutionary fascist party, who believed in a corporate state, were devout Catholics and violently anti-Communist and anti-Anarchist; the Carlists were/are conservative monarchists, also devoutly Catholic; the bulk of the military generals were also devoutly Catholic and conservative, forming the Uni?ɬ?n Militar Espa?ɬ±ola which secretly communicated with Mussolinis regime; and the Catholic church and the landowners were all politically conservative too.

Good starting points if you want an overview of the Civil War are Hugh Thomas' and Anthony Beevors books. There's also an excellent history of the American International Brigades volunteers - The Odyssey of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade: Americans in the Spanish Civil War.

 

[nightandthecity]

Just found this fascinating discussion on one of my favourite subjects. Unfortunately I'm pretty tied up on ebay at the moment but I can't resist a few extra points?¢‚Ǩ¬¶.

Franco?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s Nationalist rebellion was against the elected Popular Front Republican government, not against a working class Revolution. The workers revolution was actually triggered by the Nationalist rebellion, and it was suppressed by the Popular Front government before Franco?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s military victory (the driving anti-revolutionary force in the Republican camp were the Communists - fear of the Spanish revolution was the one thing that united the Fascist powers, the USSR, and the western democracies).

If the Franco rebellion had not occurred the Republican government would have introduced limited land reform and a degree of social democracy and dragged Spain into modern Europe. But any social change in favour of the working class was too much for the Spanish elite. Ironically, their rebellion triggered their worst nightmare, a genuine working class revolution.

The Red Terror was grossly exaggerated in the western media and the White terror seriously underplayed. In the first few weeks of the revolution there were executions of people believed to be Francoists and of unpopular landlords, factory owners and clerics. This was largely a spontaneous outburst by the workers and generally opposed by the trades unions and the left-wing parties. Its worth noting that many of the middle-class and most intellectuals supported the Republic and there is no record of such people being persecuted at any stage.

People were not shot for wearing hats ties etc. Workers also wear hats and ties. What is true is that in the areas controlled by the workers actual work clothes became a kind of revolutionary symbol. It is also true that those elements of the middle and upper classes opposed to the republic tended to lie low and dress down, and Orwell and others noted the decline of ?¢‚Ǩ?ìposh?¢‚Ǩ? clothes in these areas. They also noted that as the revolutionary wave subsided and the Republic re-established its power smart clothes and the higher classes became more visible.

Current estimates of the numbers executed behind the lines vary, but all agree that the White terror was on a much larger scale. Estimates for the Red terror range from 20,000 to 50,000, but these figures include those killed in the feuding between rival leftist groups. Figures for the White terror range from 200,000 to 400,000, around half between 1936-39 and the rest between 1939-43. In fact, even the 400,000 figure could be a serious underestimate - these killings continued into the 1960s and the Anarcho-Syndicalist union the CNT alone reckons that 500,000 of its member ?¢‚Ǩ?ìdisappeared?¢‚Ǩ? between 1936 and 1945. There was a grim logic to this. If terror in a civil war is about eliminating political enemies, most of the Spanish working class were Franco?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s political enemies, so the Nationalists inevitably killed way more people.

Spain was resolutely pro-Axis throughout WW2 in a myriad ways, some already mentioned. That they didn?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t formally join in was simply sensible real-politic. They were too weakened by the civil war and could not risk conscripting (and thus arming) their own rebellious population.

Geo, your assessment of rural anarchism in Andalucia is not far off, but never forget that the heart of the movement lay in the industrial north east where it had a more modern and less ascetic character. The working class revolution in this area is an astonishing story and not generally well known. It is one of the few occasions when classical Anarchism has been tried out with the workers running their own factories and power lying with directly elected local assemblies. The Republic suppressed this movement and Franco finished the job. How the rural movement in Andalucia would have evolved we don?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t know because the south fell to Franco at the start - it was here that some of the worst massacres occurred, effectively destroying the Anarchist movement in the region.

The western powers were hostile to the Spanish republic from the start. This story has been told many times. However a recent work by the aviation historian Gerald Howson (Arms for Spain, the Untold story of the Spanish Civil War) suggests that the extent of western support of Franco has actually been seriously underestimated - and the extent of Russian aid to the republic grossly overestimated (the main aim of the Russians seems to have been to defraud the republic of its gold reserves by a series of exchange rate scams in return for mostly antique arms with little ammunition). His book is well worth reading by anyone who doubts the sheer amoral duplicity of all politicians.

Many people hoped that the allies would indeed invade Spain in 1945 and re-establish the republic. Not least because of the important role played by Spanish refugees in the French Resistance and in the allied armies (mostly with DeGaulle?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s Free French). This was na?ɬØve in the extreme. The issue was not even on the cards. With the axis defeated there was no reason to see Franco as a threat, and every reason to seek him as an ally.