Smoking in England banned from July 1st...

[Tomasso]

Looks like governments worldwide are trying to make tobacco use a thing of the past.

I don't know, the tobacco companies are bigger than ever. Seems like governments have simply reaped the user tax revenues and restricted smoking venues while allowing the industry to barrel along.[huh]

 

[jamespowers]

I don't know, the tobacco companies are bigger than ever. Seems like governments have simply reaped the user tax revenues and restricted smoking venues while allowing the industry to barrel along.[huh]

And they aren't likely going to kill the goose that lays golden eggs.
However the principle of these laws is what gets to me. It does smack of elitism.:eusa_doh:
It also breeds a culture of Smoke Easies around here---mentioned in another thread. There are no police in every bar enforcing it so if the owner ignores it, its ignored. It does breed a disrespect for the law as all unenforceable laws do. Kind of a whatayougonnadoaboutit.

Regards,

J

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

I don't know, the tobacco companies are bigger than ever. Seems like governments have simply reaped the user tax revenues and restricted smoking venues while allowing the industry to barrel along.[huh]

It's always been protitable. But the number of tobacco users I think has been decreasing, so to compensate, taxes and prices are going through the roof. Here's some interesting history from Wikipedia,...( Heck, if I could get the really primo stuff the native Americans used to smoke, I might just start again. )

Native Americans used tobacco before Europeans arrived in North & South America, and early European settlers in North & South America learned to smoke and brought the practice back to Europe, where it became hugely popular. At extremely high doses, tobacco becomes hallucinogenic; accordingly, Native Americans generally did not use the drug recreationally. Rather, it was often consumed in extraordinarily high quantities and used as an entheogen; among some tribes, this was done only by experienced shamans or medicine men. Eastern North American tribes would use tobacco only on sacred or ceremonial occasions, as to seal a bargain, and would smoke it at such occasions in all stages of life, even in the papoose, without ever suffering from addiction. It was believed that the exhaled tobacco smoke was capable of carrying one's thoughts to heaven.

In addition to being smoked, uncured tobacco was often eaten, drunk as tobacco juice, or used in enemas. Early missionaries often reported on the ecstatic state caused by tobacco. As its use spread into Western cultures, however, it was no longer used in such large quantities or for entheogenic purposes. Religious use of tobacco is still common among many indigenous peoples, particularly those of South America and North America. Among the Cree and Ojibway of Canada it is offered to the Creator with a prayer; it is used in sweatlodges, pipe ceremonies, smudging and presented as a gift. A gift of tobacco is tradition when asking an Ojibway elder a question of a spiritual nature. Because of its sacred and respected nature, tobacco abuse (thoughtlessly and addictively chain smoking) is seriously frowned upon by the Algonquian tribes of Canada, as it is believed that if one so abuses the plant, it will abuse that person in return, causing sickness.

With the arrival of Europeans, tobacco became one of the primary products fueling the colonization of the future American South, long before the creation of the United States. The initial colonial expansion, fueled by the desire to increase tobacco production, was one cause of the first colonial conflicts with Native Americans and became a driving factor for the use of African slaves labor.

In 1609, John Rolfe arrived at the Jamestown Settlement in Virginia. He is credited as the first man to successfully raise tobacco for commercial use at Jamestown. The tobacco raised in Virginia at that time, Nicotiana rustica, was not to the liking of the Europeans, but Rolfe had brought some seed for Nicotiana tabacum with him from Bermuda. Shortly after arriving, his first wife died, and he married Pocahontas, a daughter of Chief Powhatan. Although most of the settlers wouldn't touch the tobacco crop, Rolfe was able to make his fortune farming it for export at Varina Farms Plantation. When he left for England with Pocahontas, he was wealthy. When Rolfe returned to Jamestown following Pocahontas's death in England, he continued to improve the quality of tobacco. By 1620, 40,000 pounds of tobacco were shipped to England. By the time John Rolfe died in 1622, Jamestown was thriving as a producer of tobacco and Jamestown's population would top 4,000. Tobacco led to the importation of the colony's first black slaves in 1619. In the year 1616, 2,500 pounds of tobacco were produced in Jamestown Virginia, quickly rising up to 119,000 pounds in 1620.


The importation of tobacco into Europe was not without resistance and controversy, even in the 17th century. King James I of England (James VI of Scotland) wrote a famous polemic titled A Counterblaste to Tobacco in 1604 (published in 1672). In his essay, the king denounced tobacco use as "[a] custome lothsome to the eye, hatefull to the Nose, harmefull to the braine, dangerous to the Lungs, and in the blacke stinking fume thereof, neerest resembling the horrible Stigian smoke of the pit that is bottomelesse." In that same year, an English statute was enacted that placed a heavy protective tariff on every pound of tobacco brought into England.

Throughout the 17th and 18th centuries, tobacco continued to be the "cash crop" of the Virginia Colony, along with The Carolinas. Large tobacco warehouses filled the areas near the wharfs of new thriving towns such as Richmond and Manchester at the fall line (head of navigation) on the James River, and Petersburg on the Appomattox River.

Until 1883, tobacco excise tax accounted for one third of internal revenue collected by the United States government.

 

[jamespowers]

It's always been protitable. But the number of tobacco users I think has been decreasing, so to compensate, taxes and prices are going through the roof. Here's some interesting history from Wikipedia,...( Heck, if I could get the really primo stuff the native Americans used to smoke, I might just start again. )

Native Americans used tobacco before Europeans arrived in North & South America, and early European settlers in North & South America learned to smoke and brought the practice back to Europe, where it became hugely popular. At extremely high doses, tobacco becomes hallucinogenic; accordingly, Native Americans generally did not use the drug recreationally. Rather, it was often consumed in extraordinarily high quantities and used as an entheogen; among some tribes, this was done only by experienced shamans or medicine men. Eastern North American tribes would use tobacco only on sacred or ceremonial occasions, as to seal a bargain, and would smoke it at such occasions in all stages of life, even in the papoose, without ever suffering from addiction. It was believed that the exhaled tobacco smoke was capable of carrying one's thoughts to heaven.

In addition to being smoked, uncured tobacco was often eaten, drunk as tobacco juice, or used in enemas. Early missionaries often reported on the ecstatic state caused by tobacco. As its use spread into Western cultures, however, it was no longer used in such large quantities or for entheogenic purposes. Religious use of tobacco is still common among many indigenous peoples, particularly those of South America and North America. Among the Cree and Ojibway of Canada it is offered to the Creator with a prayer; it is used in sweatlodges, pipe ceremonies, smudging and presented as a gift. A gift of tobacco is tradition when asking an Ojibway elder a question of a spiritual nature. Because of its sacred and respected nature, tobacco abuse (thoughtlessly and addictively chain smoking) is seriously frowned upon by the Algonquian tribes of Canada, as it is believed that if one so abuses the plant, it will abuse that person in return, causing sickness.

With the arrival of Europeans, tobacco became one of the primary products fueling the colonization of the future American South, long before the creation of the United States. The initial colonial expansion, fueled by the desire to increase tobacco production, was one cause of the first colonial conflicts with Native Americans and became a driving factor for the use of African slaves labor.

In 1609, John Rolfe arrived at the Jamestown Settlement in Virginia. He is credited as the first man to successfully raise tobacco for commercial use at Jamestown. The tobacco raised in Virginia at that time, Nicotiana rustica, was not to the liking of the Europeans, but Rolfe had brought some seed for Nicotiana tabacum with him from Bermuda. Shortly after arriving, his first wife died, and he married Pocahontas, a daughter of Chief Powhatan. Although most of the settlers wouldn't touch the tobacco crop, Rolfe was able to make his fortune farming it for export at Varina Farms Plantation. When he left for England with Pocahontas, he was wealthy. When Rolfe returned to Jamestown following Pocahontas's death in England, he continued to improve the quality of tobacco. By 1620, 40,000 pounds of tobacco were shipped to England. By the time John Rolfe died in 1622, Jamestown was thriving as a producer of tobacco and Jamestown's population would top 4,000. Tobacco led to the importation of the colony's first black slaves in 1619. In the year 1616, 2,500 pounds of tobacco were produced in Jamestown Virginia, quickly rising up to 119,000 pounds in 1620.


The importation of tobacco into Europe was not without resistance and controversy, even in the 17th century. King James I of England (James VI of Scotland) wrote a famous polemic titled A Counterblaste to Tobacco in 1604 (published in 1672). In his essay, the king denounced tobacco use as "[a] custome lothsome to the eye, hatefull to the Nose, harmefull to the braine, dangerous to the Lungs, and in the blacke stinking fume thereof, neerest resembling the horrible Stigian smoke of the pit that is bottomelesse." In that same year, an English statute was enacted that placed a heavy protective tariff on every pound of tobacco brought into England.

Throughout the 17th and 18th centuries, tobacco continued to be the "cash crop" of the Virginia Colony, along with The Carolinas. Large tobacco warehouses filled the areas near the wharfs of new thriving towns such as Richmond and Manchester at the fall line (head of navigation) on the James River, and Petersburg on the Appomattox River.

Until 1883, tobacco excise tax accounted for one third of internal revenue collected by the United States government.

So, in short, tobacco helped build this country.

Regards,

J

 

[KittyT]

It also breeds a culture of Smoke Easies around here---mentioned in another thread. There are no police in every bar enforcing it so if the owner ignores it, its ignored. It does breed a disrespect for the law as all unenforceable laws do.

Very interesting. This is not seen around here at all.

I will note that smoking IS allowed in private clubs. There are a few private clubs around where you pay a membership fee and can smoke and drink inside. There's an old WWII Vets club in Western Mass that does this. For a $5 membership fee, you get a yearly membership and can smoke inside the club (and the booze are cheap). It's kindof an interesting place, but mostly a college scene for karaoke :-/

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

So, in short, tobacco helped build this country.

Regards,

J

Afraid so. Too bad they didn't cultivate corn instead. But then, people just would have made booze out of it,...

 

[Fedorista]

Not much spirit of the Golden Era on this thread.

 

[dhermann1]

So, in short, tobacco helped build this country.

Regards,

J

True, but so did slavery. I think we'd all agree that slavery was a pretty bad idea, too.

 

[jamespowers]

True, but so did slavery. I think we'd all agree that slavery was a pretty bad idea, too.

Tobacco is a neutral. It is what you voluntarily do with it that makes it harmful.
Slavery was a bad idea all around. It was not a very good idea for our country either as a pretty large war that caused bad blood until this day was fought over it. Better we had just left it alone from the start.
It still exists in certain parts of the world though. :eusa_doh:

Regards,

J

 

[Tango Yankee]

Well, whatdoyaknow! Going to a pub might be more enjoyable now!

I enjoyed the pubs in England except for one thing--the smoke. As a result I didn't go very often. I quit going to bars a long time ago because of it. I disliked going out to eat because, as someone once put it, "A no-smoking area in a restaurant is like having a no-peeing section in a pool!"

I was quite pleased when Ohioans passed their law. Now that it's been declared that it extends to private clubs (including the VFW, etc) I may actually join the VFW. Didn't see the point before, since I'd never go.

Cheers,
Tom

 

[Phil]

I like the smoking ban in my area. My friends and I often go bowling. WE usually go to a place called Elk Grove Bowl. Nice place, reasonable prices. The only problem we had was some people would smoke like chimneys and it kinda of made the experience less fun. It wasn't horrible, but nobody in my group of friends smokes and most of them, like me, can't stand the smell of cigarette smoke. It's nicer in resturaunts too. I remember sitting in a resturaunt when smoking was still allowed. I could never taste the food entirely. It ALWAYS tasted a little bit like ash.

I don't understand the allure of trying smoking in the first place. It's the one thing that is guarnteed to give cancer and kill you. Most people wouldn't want to get anywhere near a radioactive substance. Why? Because it mutates cells causing cancer. Most people also wouldn't inhale smoke from a campfire or a burning building. Why? Because smoke inhalation is bad for you, suffocates you, and whatever chemicals are being burned and transferred into the smoke will harm you. But for some reason people will suck on those death sticks and pay for it. I don't get it.

On the other hand. For those who like slow suicide. I'll buy a big ship. And for $500 per head, I'll go 12 miles out and let them smoke to their hearts content. Or it's distress. I'm not sure.

 

[dhermann1]

It's the nicotine. It's a heavy duty tranquilizer, and there are a lot of people out there that need tranquilizing.

 

[moustache]

Like others here whom live in Washington,i have lived under the toughest smoking law in the country now for awhile.
And i LOVE IT!!! Humans do many bad things to their bodies.And smoking is a nasty one.But if they want to do it to their own body,fine.
But when it encroaches on others,i think the ban is appropriate.Why do humans ignore the evidence of how smoking kills?I thought we were intelligent creatures?? Every year how many millions die worldwide??And we still do it??
Why not have gladitorial games or slavery?Because we know it is bad!!!!!
Why is this different from smoking?There are unwilling participants in both examples.
I remember flying to europe back when smoking was allowed on planes.What a horrible journey!!In a metal cylinder with people smoking all around you.And nowhere to go for 18 hours!!What choice did we have??Take the ship across the Atlantic??

My point is that the government needs to look out for the GREATER good of the population.And now 82% do not smoke.(online stats i found)
So why should 18% and their filthy habit cause the death of those whom do not smoke?(no offense meant personally of course)
Am i wrong here?
This smoking ban was VOTED in by the people.Not the state government.
And they spoke clearly.Thats democracy is it not??

JD

 

[jamespowers]

Like others here whom live in Washington,i have lived under the toughest smoking law in the country now for awhile.
And i LOVE IT!!! Humans do many bad things to their bodies.And smoking is a nasty one.But if they want to do it to their own body,fine.
But when it encroaches on others,i think the ban is appropriate.Why do humans ignore the evidence of how smoking kills?I thought we were intelligent creatures?? Every year how many millions die worldwide??And we still do it??
Why not have gladitorial games or slavery?Because we know it is bad!!!!!
Why is this different from smoking?There are unwilling participants in both examples.
I remember flying to europe back when smoking was allowed on planes.What a horrible journey!!In a metal cylinder with people smoking all around you.And nowhere to go for 18 hours!!What choice did we have??Take the ship across the Atlantic??

My point is that the government needs to look out for the GREATER good of the population.And now 82% do not smoke.(online stats i found)
So why should 18% and their filthy habit cause the death of those whom do not smoke?(no offense meant personally of course)
Am i wrong here?
This smoking ban was VOTED in by the people.Not the state government.
And they spoke clearly.Thats democracy is it not??

JD

That depends. Where are you stopping? Drinking, flying, driving, skydiving, fatty foods, candy, soft drinks, non-sensible shoes?!
More people die every year from being beat to death with hands and feet than any other weapon of choice. Do we ban hands and feet for the good of the population? Where do we vote on it?
Let me remind you that we are a Republic and not a Democracy---see Athens, Ancient Greece for reasons why not.

Regards,

J

 

[moustache]

That depends. Where are you stopping? Drinking, flying, driving, skydiving, fatty foods, candy, soft drinks, non-sensible shoes?!
More people die every year from being beat to death with hands and feet than any other weapon of choice. Do we ban hands and feet for the good of the population? Where do we vote on it?
Let me remind you that we are a Republic and not a Democracy---see Athens, Ancient Greece for reasons why not.

Regards,

J

Point taken but the hands and feet example is a bit far out there.Not physically possible
Funny how those doing bad things always seem to change their minds(most of the time)after developing cancer or some other life altering mishap.Proactive measures are needed.If you knew that skydiving was going to kill your kids,would it be sane to send them up and push them out of the plane?Should it be illegal for a parent to force his child to skydive?Or take rat poison??Same thought involved.People are bing forced to inhale others carcinogens.In their own home:fine.Or a private business that caters to smokers.I have no problem with that.
But when most do not smoke,what is most logical and sane?Who should have the final say?If you leave every decision of what to do to each person,then plenty of humans would feel ok in murder,rape,theft and such with no penalty.Where do our morals start and stop?
Just curious.


JD

 

[Tomasso]

People are being forced to inhale others carcinogens.

It amuses me that some (not necessary you) will rail against secondhand smoke while ignoring the elephant in the room, automobile and industrial pollutants.

 

[jamespowers]

Point taken but the hands and feet example is a bit far out there.Not physically possible
Funny how those doing bad things always seem to change their minds(most of the time)after developing cancer or some other life altering mishap.Proactive measures are needed.If you knew that skydiving was going to kill your kids,would it be sane to send them up and push them out of the plane?Should it be illegal for a parent to force his child to skydive?Or take rat poison??Same thought involved.People are bing forced to inhale others carcinogens.In their own home:fine.Or a private business that caters to smokers.I have no problem with that.
But when most do not smoke,what is most logical and sane?Who should have the final say?If you leave every decision of what to do to each person,then plenty of humans would feel ok in murder,rape,theft and such with no penalty.Where do our morals start and stop?
Just curious.


JD

Are you saying that we cannot trust people so the government should make the decisions for us?! Trotsky would be proud. :eusa_doh:
The people who smoke nowadays and even as far back as the inception of smoking for that matter, knew it was bad for them. The only thing worse we could do is package them in small coffins with the brand name Death on it.
You left out the simple decision that people can just walk away from the smoke if they don't want to be exposed to it. That is the most logical. I just wouldn't go to places where they smoke like chimneys if it bothered me. [huh]
All of those crimes you mentioned are in fact already outlawed. There is already a penalty. Though I wonder why you would put a murderer, rapist and thief in the same category as a smoker. :eusa_doh: Smoking is legal and so is tobacco.
I suppose Animal Farm and 1984 are just around the corner with this kind of attitude. Some people are just more equal than others.
I judge our society based on how we treat those that are in the minority of opinion and action. Smokers are as such by your statistics. They sure are being treated badly in this proposed action. Not a good sign. :eusa_doh:

Regards,

J

 

[Miss Neecerie]

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[warbird]

The news, society, our culture, our form of government and liberties naturally are inextricably intertwined with politics and policy. It is fortunate for us as a somewhat educated society of inquisitive and independent people that we are this way. To try and force something different is egregious to our sensibilities and smacks of communism and bloody dictators.

 

[jamespowers]

The news, society, our culture, our form of government and liberties naturally are inextricably intertwined with politics and policy. It is fortunate for us as a somewhat educated society of inquisitive and independent people that we are this way. To try and force something different is egregious to our sensibilities and smacks of communism and bloody dictators.

:eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap