Smoking in England banned from July 1st...

[moustache]

That's interesting. That's how it should be . . . have a vote. Fairest way round the issue. Of course then you get into "tyranny of the majority" territory. (Territory which can fairly be described as choppy waters on your side of the Atlantic. i don't recall even hearing the term elsewhere).

Interesting that this part of your response has been glossed over.

bk

Then again ANY debate will have both those for and against.In this there will never be a winner.
And if you notice i did not say that the US was a democratic country.Only that democracy was the principle used in my verbage.
Someone will always take offense no matter what.No matter what issue.
At any time in history.Tyranny of majority has occured and always will.Look at Nazi germany.
But that is an extreme example i agree.
Funny how those who don't want the government making any laws for us are the same crowd lining up for benefits when possible."No new taxes!" but "Hey,where is my Social security check" or "It is my right to have unemployment pay".

How else should a country this size be run??Every administration has shown perfection or even 20% accomplishment impossible.

So when it comes to health issues,what should be done??Let the people decide?Let the government decide?
If we take back all of the progress in health over the last 100 years,then we would have an average lifespan of the early 20th century:55 to 65.And rather poor health nationwide.Bring back how many diseases.TB,etc,etc.Hindsight is ALWAYS 20/20.

Whatever the outcome of such a ban,i'm happy that smoking is on the decline and fewer people are dying from it.All four of my grandparents died as a result.Hate to see any others with the same results.



JD

 

[Spitfire]

What really puzzels me is something I read in our local newspaper.
A private club - "The Army & Navy Club" in London (I think) had their last cigarnight the other evening, where the membes enjoyed several great cigars.
And from now on, its forbidden to smoke in this old, historic club. How come? Isn't it a private club? With members who can decide whether they want to be in a smokers club or not.
Will the next thing be, that you are not even allowed to light up a cigar in your own private home, unless you are totally alone.[huh]

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Sincerest apologies for the lengthy reply.

This is not to be dealt with by short answers, unfortunately.

Well, it comes down to how you define a "public space". If, as appears to be the case re: the English law, you define it as any place other than a private residence where people congregate, excepting outdoors, then clearly private members clubs are included. The fact that there are fees associated with such clubs limits their ability to suggest they are merely friends gathering at someone's residence etc.

The reason there was no caveat in the law to exclude private members clubs is that the government new very well that bars would simply declare themselves private members clubs and charge a nominal fee.

This law (ostensibly, i make no judgement on this reasoning) is for the protection of the health of workers, and - as i understand it - the unions were fully consulted and agreed that it was for the best of the workers. And if you've ever been in a pub in London (i make no claims about the rest of England), you know that you're generally not being served by an Englishman. You're being served by someone polish, or Australian, or South African, or - God Forbid! - a New Zealander. These people cannot just "get another job if they don't like it". Bar work is the single most reasonable option for transient workers in our Nation's Capital.

To declare yourself a private club and thus get around the law would circumvent this attempt to protect the health of the worker.

As for cigar shops, i agree that this one is baffling. It is outwith the realms of sanity to suggest that someone could stumble into a cigar shop not knowing what it was, and do it so often as to be exposed to the levels of smoke that could cause a cancer. I'm firmly of the belief that tobacconists should have been exempted if they had a smoking room. But apparently they don't.

So, if british tourists - and everyone else - need to deal with absurd alcohol age limits in the US, American tourists - and everyone else - need to deal with not being able to smoke in public in the UK.

bk

 

[benstephens]

The only places that have been exempted are Royal Palaces, which include the Houses of Parliament.

I suppose theoretically you could smoke whilst visiting Buckingham Palace. Baron is right though, it would be impossible to exempt certain members clubs, as every bar and club would suddenly be a private members bar. I suppose the same could be said for Cigar bars, as if they were exempt, then others would follow and set them selves up as such, and we would be in no different position than we are now.

It is the same for Shisha bars, although only few in numbers will hit their business detrimentally.

Ben

 

[Baron Kurtz]

i suspect that there will be no shisha bars any more in Britain. The ones i've been into were pretty miserable establishments, and i suspect that without the hookahs they wouldn't exist. Frankly there's only so much demand for bad bars with high prices. Without the gimmick, these places are some of the worst in town.

bk

 

[Smithy]

I've had the dubious pleasure of experiencing smoke bans in two countries already. When first living in Norway smoking in pubs, bars, etc was banned 1st June 2004, which was fine in summer, however in winter it was terrible, especially in Bodø where we were living (this is inside the Arctic Circle) as you may imagine. Hilariously enough most pubs offer huge thick blankets to wrap yourself in so you don't freeze to death having a puff.

NZ also banned smoking at the same time (weird coincedence or something spookier - conspiracy theorists go to work). When we moved back there, we'd already gotten used to not smoking in pubs so it wasn't a huge deal. Especially with Auckland's very mild climate, smoking outside in the middle of winter is pleasant. It really hasn't made a huge difference because a large amount of pubs, restaurants there have outdoor seating, and Kiwis tend to prefer to sit outside so long as it's not bucketing down. I'll admit though that I miss, having a scotch in winter at a pub's fireside.

Personally I couldn't see why smoking and non-smoking pubs shouldn't be an option. If staff sign a thing saying they don't mind at all, who cares. Clubs, cigar shops, etc, really should be exempt. As Baron says, how can a violently anti-smoker accidentally burst into a cigar shop unknowingly.

Eventually it'll be banned altogether. I believe Bhutan has done such a thing already.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

The issue is complicated in England - and eventually in the rest of Europe; it is inevitable - by EU and UK safety in the workplace laws. Health and Safety is an important part of being in business.

If we are to accept that 'second hand smoke' is dangerous to non-smokers and smokers alike, (and both the Uk and EU governments explicitly accept this) then Health and Safety guidelines would suggest that people cannot be exposed to the hazard in a public place. The fact is that there should be no separate law for cigarette/cigar/pipe smoke; these are already covered by health and safety legislation protecting workers and the public from hazardous environments. (analagous to the asbestos ban, which no-one - to my knowledge - rejects)

The reason, i think, for a separate law, is to make it look a little less like the government imposing itself, which would be inevitable if they just turned around and said: "You're not allowed to smoke any more. This is covered by existing legislation", as they would be perfectly entitled to do.

bk

 

[Smithy]

God Forbid! - a New Zealander.

I resent that!

 

[Baron Kurtz]

he he he [just kidding]

bk

 

[Smithy]

You were lucky there, information was about to be passed on and half of Earls Court was going to be after you lol

Seriously though, London is stuffed full of Kiwis, smoking and non-smoking!

 

[Baron Kurtz]

That's why i stay away from Earl's Court. I suspect my ears would burst from the proximity of so many jarring accents

bk

 

[benstephens]

No Place to hide I am afraid Baron, they are everywhere, I have one living with me !

Ben

 

[cookie]

The only places that have been exempted are Royal Palaces, which include the Houses of Parliament.

I suppose theoretically you could smoke whilst visiting Buckingham Palace. Baron is right though, it would be impossible to exempt certain members clubs, as every bar and club would suddenly be a private members bar. I suppose the same could be said for Cigar bars, as if they were exempt, then others would follow and set them selves up as such, and we would be in no different position than we are now.

It is the same for Shisha bars, although only few in numbers will hit their business detrimentally.

Ben

They tried this stunt Down Under and I remember this happeneed in our Federal Parliament. One Minister used to like a cigar and stunk the joint out every afternoon. I have been a smoker at various times in my life but no more. Smoking is bad and shoud be totally discouraged from anywhere. Forget all this cigar and port crap - that's something we don't need.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

I always thought they could have a specific provision for tobacconists. Something like:

"Smoking of tobacco will be allowed in the premises of a business that solely sells tobacco and associated products and provides a smoking environment for their customers. This area would be separate from the business portion of the store and no member of staff or the public would be forced to enter the smoking area against their will. No alcohol could be served."

But then, do we really need to smoke when we visit the tobacconist?

bk

 

[Empyrium]

Smoking in public bars, restaurants, offices..etc hits a blanket ban from
July 1st in England (UK).

Many places already have their own anti smoking policy, but this becomes law in England in a few weeks.

Not sure if you have this type of law in the US, or other countries across the world?[huh] (please tell!).

But the most controversial thing about it seems to be folk who like to go out to the traditional OLDE ENGLISH PUB (The George & Dragon; or Red Lion..or whatever!!) and enjoy having a fag/tab/cig with their pint!!! won't be allowed to do it now!!

What do you think of this 'age old' custom coming to an end? It's a long way from the old Players and Chesterfield ads of the 30's and 40's where a beautiful or handsome Golden Era movie star had a cigarette in their hand.

thats good news...nothing worse than enter in a restaurant and leave smelling cigar

 

[Edward]

Has anyone been in the pub since the ban? I've heard it's a lot more pleasant for so many folks, but I've not been in one sicne sunday.... I did drop in on Friday night though for a quick drink and soem pre-theatre food in a pub in the West End that a bunch of friends use when we're uptown for the theatre. They went non smoking some days ahead of the ban, and the difference was amazing. So much nicer to walk through the place, and it even made a huge difference in the little non-smoking section at the back where we always sat and which always was non-smoking. Seems to me that there might be an inital fuss, but that'll be it.

Are the hookah places covered then? I wondered whether they would be as I thought there wasn't any smoke came out of those things (I've never studied one in use)? I suspect we'll see a big upswing in nicoteen gum etc - both from folks who are trying to give up now, and those who don't want to give up but are using it for convenience so as to not have to go outside for a fix as often.

 

[Empyrium]

they should apply this law here in japan too, after chinese, japanese are the ppl who most smoke on the earth...its disgusting to have a dinner with that blue "haze"...ekk

 

[Edward]

they should apply this law here in japan too, after chinese, japanese are the ppl who most smoke on the earth...its disgusting to have a dinner with that blue "haze"...ekk

Funnily enoug,h that's a thing I've noticed here in London.... I teach at one of the universities and 60-70% of my students are overseas.... the groups with the highest incidence of smokers, in my experience are the French (most of them), the Scandinavians, and the Japanese. for some reason, it really surprised me to discover just how many Japanese kids who come to London smoke, I don't know why..... maybe because I perceive Japan as being so far ahead of us in so many ways, I figured they'd be ahead in the "smoking = not the smartest thing you can do" curve.... ?

I don't teach many Aussies, but it also seems from experience in London that Australians smoke a lot as well.

 

[killertomata]

Here in California we have a similar ban, no smoking in public places or in bars and restaurants. I'm very very grateful for the ban. I have bad asthma and for years couldn't go out to almost any place- no bars, no dance clubs, and forget concerts. And considering most nonsmokers would rather not breathe smoke if they can help it, the ban seemed to please a lot of people. It also doesn't seem to have hurt business. I've known plenty of club promoters and only one complained and blamed his club closing on the ban, but I think that's a lousy excuse when everyone else just adjusted as was fine.

I was just telling my boyfriend about pubs in London I wanted to see but can't because they're full of smoke. This ban in England changes things, I'll have an easier time in the city next time I travel there. I'll be able to patronize more business, so from a tourism point of view it could be a plus.

If I was a smoker, I would probably not be too happy about it all... but most smokers I know are considerate about it and understand these things even if it's a bummer at first.

 

[Elaina]

I work in a restaurant part time, and out of the 17 of us employed there (from 10 hours to full time) 17 of us smoke.

I polled (I asked whomever was waiting on us, and in some cases all the servers in the place) over the last two months a variety of restaurants, from dives to nice joints, and found that out of the 73 I asked, 59 smoked. (DFW area, the last smoking topic got me curious when I heard servers didn't smoke.) The number included a variety of restaurant staff, from managers and servers to host/ess, cooks and busboys/dishwashers. Fast food is less likely to have smokers then sitdown restaurants. Out of the 17 at work, and the 73 polled, 85 offered the information that they liked pot. Marijuana was smoked by 12 non-smokers and 18 smokers. (It was offered information. Apparently I look like a pot head when I go out at 2 A.M.)

Frankly, I smoke. I don't go to places I can't. All it's done for me is put less of my money back into my town because I buy more junk off of the internet, and stay home. Our "going out" frequently is walking up the block to another couple's house who also smokes, where 4 families hang out there and drop $50 to feed everyone versus the $250 or so that would go back into the economy.

I will also state, as a waitress non smokers tip about half of what a smoker does, and the moment the place I work at goes non-smoking, me and my 15 years of being a good server will walk out the door. I'm not there for my health.