Silk over leather sweatband

[kaosharper1]

Anybody ever see a fedora with this? It has a silk liner over a leather sweat.

 

[hatted]

Where's the hat?

 

[Brad Bowers]

I've seen one other, on a tuxedo hat that belongs to another Lounger.

I know the hat to which you are referring, and it's grey, and not a tuxedo hat. It's a rarity, but I don't know the reasoning behind it.

Brad

 

[kaosharper1]

Help with this hat?

The hat just came, and I will post pics in the next few days. But I thought some of you experts might have an idea on this hat.

It is a very fine hat. The felt is thin but dense and feels nicer than my 1950s Borsalino Allessandra which up to this point was the nicest felt of my production hats. The crown is a full 6" while the brim is 2 1/4". The lining is cream colored and sewn. The protector over the logo seems paper like and has yellowed so I can barely see the Dobbs logo. The sweatband is indeed silk over leather and has a very elaborate bow. And it is definitely a 7 3/8.

It came in a nice Dobbs box that once had a leather strap.

Is it possible this hat is from the late 1920s to early 1930s? Its kind of like those C&K ads, and I could definitely bash it that way.

I'd appreciate any help that can be given. It certainly seems like a good deal for $35 though the shipping was a little steep.

Here's the ebay listing:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=220431658172

 

[Brad Bowers]

I'd be glad to help!

And now I'm wishing I'd bid on it!

I don't think it's earlier than maybe late-'30s, but we'll have to see when you post more photos. It looks like it has a reeded sweatband, which is an indicator. I also don't know how early the oilskin tip protectors were in use. They certainly weren't universally used across the Hat Corp. lines.

But the dimensions could support an earlier hat than what the seller suggested.

The only two hats I've seen the covered sweatband on were '30s.

Any other tags/labels inside the hat, maybe lurking underneath the liner? Photos of them would help.

Brad

 

[kaosharper1]

Thanks, Brad. Even from the 1930s it would my oldest hat, and it's in great condition. Also a nice shade of light grey.

No other tags. That was the first thing I looked for, though there is a lot of writing on the inside of the leather sweat itself, all numbers. The writing mostly looks pretty new and may have been inventories or something for an estate or auction. The leather is very thin and fragile. Some of it is torn and missing. But that is really the only part of the hat that is damaged, and no one can see it.

Also, the ribbon is 1 3/4" and I believe that the 1920s and early 1930s had 2" ribbons?

 

[feltfan]

Looks like a homespun means of repairing a damaged
leather sweatband to me. Nice hat, but sure doesn't
look older than late 40s, to judge from the liner.

 

[kaosharper1]

Looks like a homespun means of repairing a damaged
leather sweatband to me. Nice hat, but sure doesn't
look older than late 40s, to judge from the liner.

A closer look at the silk sweat shows that it it has the Dobbs logo and is labeled a "Twenty." Also it looks like a Guild logo of some kind. Its so faint that I didn't see it until I tilted it in the light. Even so it's almost invisible, and I don't think I'll be able to photo it. The stitching along the sweat is very close together. Also the back stitching has this triple loop bow on it. So it looks like the silk sweat is original. Also, it is reeded, though you can't see that very well in the ebay pics. When did they start reeding sweats?

Did they make 6" crowns in the late 1940s? I thought they had gotten lower by then.

 

[carouselvic]

Looks like a homespun means of repairing a damaged
leather sweatband to me.
QUOTE]

That's the first thing I thought when I saw it.

 

[feltfan]

A closer look at the silk sweat shows that it it has the Dobbs logo and is labeled a "Twenty." Also it looks like a Guild logo of some kind.

Now I really am curious. And the Guild logo is an odd touch,
given that it doesn't have a Guild Edge. Brad? Any thoughts on that?

 

[kaosharper1]

Now I really am curious. And the Guild logo is an odd touch,
given that it doesn't have a Guild Edge. Brad? Any thoughts on that?

Ah. You're right. It says "Guild Edge" but doesn't have one. Maybe someone trimmed the brim which would explain why it's only 2 1/4". If that's true it's a tragedy. But the hat still looks good and strangely in proportion like a C&K. Maybe someone did that in the 50s or 60s to make the hat more "contemporary?"

 

[Brad Bowers]

Yes, sadly, many hats lost their felted edges to contemporization efforts in the '60s. That seems to be the case here. Although, I suppose some kind of damage to the brim might have necessitated the surgery, too.

So, we know the hat is no older than 1944 because of the Guild Edge logo. I think the hat probably dates between 1944 and 1955.

I have a thought on the silk-covered sweatband, and had to go back through my information to make sure. It's possible, maybe even probable, that it's not really silk, but celanese fabric, which was used as a silk substitute.

John Cavanagh set up the Cavanagh Hat Research Corporation as a subsidiary of Hat Corp. to research improvements all across the hat industry. At some point, the company had enough lawsuits from customers who had dermatological reactions to the leather sweatbands, which prompted the research division to experiment with celanese sweatbands to prevent these problems.

Your hat seems a likely candidate for that, as perhaps this customer had a bad reaction to their leather, and this was a fix, of sorts. Just wrap the leather, and you have the functionality without the allergic reaction.

The other explanation is that perhaps the fabric was considered more comfortable, but if that's the case, why have the leather at all?

Brad

 

[kaosharper1]

That sounds reasonable to me. It does appear that the leather backing was intentional. The leather is far too thin and fragile to stand on its own. Plus it has no markings on it. All the markings are on the fabric. So it was probably some sort of short term experiment. The brim was also modernized along the way.

The good news is the hat still looks and feels good. I expect I'll be wearing it a lot. Plus it does show me that I can get away with a smaller brim as long as the crown is tall. That was why I bought it to begin with.

It is a shame about the brim. The felt is really nice but that's the way it goes.

Thanks for all the help. I'll still publish photos here in the next few days.

 

[Lefty]

Ythe Cavanagh Hat Research Corporation as a subsidiary of Hat Corp.

I've got a bunch of ads from the Hat Research Corporation, which I thought was some sort of general hat industry advertiser. All of the ads talk about buying new hats (for every occasion) but I don't remember them mentioning a brand.

 

[kaosharper1]

If you're interested, it does appear that the fabric sweat band was folded over the top of the leather. The leather is also attached to the fabric at the seam. And it has the clover-leaf bow on it. It now looks like it's definitely from the mid to late 1940s though (to me) the height of the crown is a little bit of a surprise. I thought 6" crowns went out in the 1930s.

 

[Brad Bowers]

I've got a bunch of ads from the Hat Research Corporation, which I thought was some sort of general hat industry advertiser. All of the ads talk about buying new hats (for every occasion) but I don't remember them mentioning a brand.

I'd love to see them sometime. It's got to be the same company. Cavanagh set it up to benefit the entire industry, not just Hat Corp., so that's probably why there's no brand mentioned.

If you're interested, it does appear that the fabric sweat band was folded over the top of the leather. The leather is also attached to the fabric at the seam. And it has the clover-leaf bow on it. It now looks like it's definitely from the mid to late 1940s though (to me) the height of the crown is a little bit of a surprise. I thought 6" crowns went out in the 1930s.

Stylewise, they did, but it doesn't surprise me that Dobbs would still make that height available. I've got a Borsalino from the late-'40s with a 5 3/4" crown, so a higher crown isn't too unusual for then.

Brad

 

[Lefty]

I'd love to see them sometime. It's got to be the same company. Cavanagh set it up to benefit the entire industry, not just Hat Corp., so that's probably why there's no brand mentioned.

Here you go.

listed as 40s

1946

these three are 1947

This one is perfect for today.

 

[Brad Bowers]

Thanks for posting those, Lefty. That's quite the ad campaign, You can almost sense their panic at the ever-increasing hatlessness going on around them.

For now, I'm going to hold off on saying these are from the Hat. Corp subsidiary started by Cavanagh. I noticed these say "Hat Research Foundation," a slightly different name. I'll do some more digging to see if I can suss this out.

Brad

 

[HatSoup]

I find my hat's leather band to be too hot for summer, does anyone suggest I put silk over it?

 

[kaosharper1]

That's a possible reason for this. While the hat has a liner, it is a summer weight felt for sure. Brad, is that a possibility?