Side By Side/ Hat Comparisons

[steur]

This comparison is long overdue. The current situation left me no excuse really. Here are five black and two blue velour hats in a row. The light wasn't ideal, but what can you do?
The two blue ones are on the left. The top one is unbranded and we'll call John Doe. Rather coarse felt for a velour, but a nice shape and proportions. The bottom one is a "Prima" velour.
The black ones vary in shape and the length of the nap mainly. Top row middle is "Spezial" and top right is an "echter Haarvelour".
Bottom row second from the left is a "Vornehm", next to it is caled "Atlantis" and far right a "Feinste Velour Mode".

Brim width varies from 5,5 cm for the Spezial and Feinste Velour Mode and 6,5cm for the John Doe and Vornehm. All the others have a brim of 6cm. Brims are almost always raw on these velour hats. There's one with an overwelt, which is the Spezial.
The Echter Haarvelour (top right) is probably the oldest hat and shows a decent amount of reverse taper.
The longer haired ones also show the most lustre.

A closer look at the brims:

In this shot the length of the different naps can be seen clearly:

Only two of them had liners:

Velour hats were around in abundance at one time and these are all unknown brands. They are excellent hats nevertheless, but as fine as these velour hats are, they are still no match for the big guns in this category, like Peschel, Wilke, Bronnold, Janyska and especially Hückel. I wouldn't be surprised though if some of these were produced by one of the bigger brands though.
And if nothing else: these hats make for great pets!

 

[steur]

Had to wear them all of course.
John Doe

Prima

Vornehm

Atlantis

Feinste Velour Mode

Spezial

Echter Haarvelour

 

[Daniele Tanto]

This comparison is long overdue. The current situation left me no excuse really. Here are five black and two blue velour hats in a row. The light wasn't ideal, but what can you do?
The two blue ones are on the left. The top one is unbranded and we'll call John Doe. Rather coarse felt for a velour, but a nice shape and proportions. The bottom one is a "Prima" velour.
The black ones vary in shape and the length of the nap mainly. Top row middle is "Spezial" and top right is an "echter Haarvelour".
Bottom row second from the left is a "Vornehm", next to it is caled "Atlantis" and far right a "Feinste Velour Mode".

Today was not a good day. For the first time, I experienced some adverse quarantine symptoms.
This vision brightens my evening. A great pile of velours and seeing them worn is the final touch.
Grazie Stefan

 

[steur]

Today was not a good day. For the first time, I experienced some adverse quarantine symptoms.
This vision brightens my evening. A great pile of velours and seeing them worn is the final touch.
Grazie Stefan

Thank you, Daniele. These comparisons are always fun to do. Gives me a chance to muck about with loads of hats

 

[Short Balding Guy]

This comparison is long overdue. The current situation left me no excuse really. Here are five black and two blue velour hats in a row. The light wasn't ideal, but what can you do?
The two blue ones are on the left. The top one is unbranded and we'll call John Doe. Rather coarse felt for a velour, but a nice shape and proportions. The bottom one is a "Prima" velour.
The black ones vary in shape and the length of the nap mainly. Top row middle is "Spezial" and top right is an "echter Haarvelour".
Bottom row second from the left is a "Vornehm", next to it is caled "Atlantis" and far right a "Feinste Velour Mode".
View attachment 221921

Brim width varies from 5,5 cm for the Spezial and Feinste Velour Mode and 6,5cm for the John Doe and Vornehm. All the others have a brim of 6cm. Brims are almost always raw on these velour hats. There's one with an overwelt, which is the Spezial.
The Echter Haarvelour (top right) is probably the oldest hat and shows a decent amount of reverse taper.
The longer haired ones also show the most lustre.
View attachment 221922
A closer look at the brims:
View attachment 221923
In this shot the length of the different naps can be seen clearly:
View attachment 221925
Only two of them had liners:
View attachment 221926 View attachment 221927

Velour hats were around in abundance at one time and these are all unknown brands. They are excellent hats nevertheless, but as fine as these velour hats are, they are still no match for the big guns in this category, like Peschel, Wilke, Bronnold, Janyska and especially Hückel. I wouldn't be surprised though if some of these were produced by one of the bigger brands though.
And if nothing else: these hats make for great pets!

Wow Velour hats abound! Thanks for sharing your velour hats. I am living velour hats thru hats posted on this thread. The differences are many in this category of felt hats. Excellent post.

 

[Short Balding Guy]

I would like to share some pics and observations about a couple of hats. A brown 40's Stetson Stratoliner and brown 50's Stetson Open Road are my side-by-side's tonight.

Both hats were sitting on my desk waiting for some steam and a crown block touch-up. I took the Stratoliner and wore it outside for a while this evening. Removing my hat I started to compare the Stetson cousins.

For 2 hats a decade apart they have remarkable similar brown felt. You can not tell the hats apart from felt, edge treatment or at a quick glance the crowns. Ribbon hue, width and feel are the same. I checked under the ribbon to see about fading/patina. None to show. The Stratoliner has a longer ribbon ends that come out onto the hat brim. The ribbon ends of the Open Road are close to the crown ribbon and have a stitch to prevent any movement. When I wear the Stratoliner in strong winds my ribbons do bang against the brim.

Above is the Stratoliner ribbon.

Above is the Open Road ribbon.

When you bring the hat to open crown it is clear that the Open Road is taller. My measurement puts it nearly 1/2" different.

Stratoliner is on the left in the above pic.

Stratoliner is on the left in both of the above pics.

Interior shows both Royal Stetsons to have similar sweats and attachment. The obvious difference is the liner showing the Stratoliner to be an earlier version.

There is a brim difference.

The above is a pic of the Stratoliner.

Above is the 50's Open Road.

The natural caveat is that I would have to examine a bigger sample of the OR's and Strat's on my hat racks to get any real definitive or exact differences. The variations in the ribbon work , brim width and felt quality are immense in my experience. The crown being bigger is a constant, in my experience. The crown shape similar is my experience.

I select a hat to wear by its appearance and not the brand or model name on the sweat. Thanks for letting me share my 2 brown hats this evening.

Be safe, be strong and see you on the streets soon, Eric -

 

[alanfgag]

Wonderful additions to this thread which I've just discovered and enjoyed... thank you Eric and Stefan.

 

[alanfgag]

Last week I had an opportunity to talk about hats with Donna's Costume Construction class. The Zoom meeting was great fun and the 90 minute talk from our "hat room" was recorded. I had hoped to share the link here. Alas, as Zoom newbies, it didn't occur to us that Zoom could not record the phone and computer content simultaneously. The result is 90 minutes of voice against a black screen with my phone number as the visual.

So licking my wounds, I thought I would share the top hat presentation through a display of ten photos. This group represents about 80 years in the history of toppers. The oldest is also the tallest (7.25") - we dated fit rom the mid 1850s from a newspaper page that was folded and stowed behind the sweatband to help the fit on the owners head. (the other tall topper was dated from the address of its Buffalo store origins to mid 1860s). The most recent is also the shortest (5") - the Penn-Craft opera hat, which came with its box and original Kleinhans receipt from 1937.

Many of these hats are posted in detail in other threads (Toppers Unite, and others). I hope you enjoy seeing them together in comparison and that the photos allow you to appreciate the subtle diversity in materials, details and dimensions. To date, I have never worn any of these outside of the house. When it becomes safe to be together with others again, I think I will find an occasion to rectify this.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

Last week I had an opportunity to talk about hats with Donna's Costume Construction class. The Zoom meeting was great fun and the 90 minute talk from our "hat room" was recorded. I had hoped to share the link here. Alas, as Zoom newbies, it didn't occur to us that Zoom could not record the phone and computer content simultaneously. The result is 90 minutes of voice against a black screen with my phone number as the visual.

So licking my wounds, I thought I would share the top hat presentation through a display of ten photos. This group represents about 80 years in the history of toppers. The oldest is also the tallest (7.25") - we dated fit rom the mid 1850s from a newspaper page that was folded and stowed behind the sweatband to help the fit on the owners head. (the other tall topper was dated from the address of its Buffalo store origins to mid 1860s). The most recent is also the shortest (5") - the Penn-Craft opera hat, which came with its box and original Kleinhans receipt from 1937.

Many of these hats are posted in detail in other threads (Toppers Unite, and others). I hope you enjoy seeing them together in comparison and that the photos allow you to appreciate the subtle diversity in materials, details and dimensions. To date, I have never worn any of these outside of the house. When it becomes safe to be together with others again, I think I will find an occasion to rectify this.

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Quite stunning, Alan. I’m in the market, but finding one in larger sizes is tough. Do I recall right that you said you found all toppers to be uncomfortable to wear?

 

[SteveFord]

I can answer part of the question as I have lots of collapsible top hat wearing experience.
There's no give to the oval section where it sits on your head and if it sits too low you'll feel the springs. The fabric on the inside is stretched taut so that has some give to it, that's effectively the sweat band.
They're just different feeling.
Picture a heavy, stiff bowler and you're close. If you've ever worn a Lock & Co. "Stiff Coke" it's a bit like that.
You get used to it but you'll never forget it's on your head unless you walk under something low hanging like I did a few minutes ago.
BONK!

One last thought: you might be able to stretch these things out a little bit but you really want to get one that fits right.

 

[alanfgag]

Quite stunning, Alan. I’m in the market, but finding one in larger sizes is tough. Do I recall right that you said you found all toppers to be uncomfortable to wear?

Not having worn any out of the house or for any length of time, my opinion is from limited experience. But I don't think that it is the case. As with any hat, a good fit is the prescription for comfortable wear. Like a stiff hat, there is little or no path to adjusting one that doesn't fit well from the get go. And as SteveFord notes above, the Gibus frame in a collapsible topper makes for a heavy hat with a steel mechanism that can affect comfort if it does not fit properly on your head.

With those limitations noted, the top hats that fit well feel comfortable on - the opera hats as well. The Stetson (the taller of the two opera hats) has a patent leather "sweatband" (it is integral to the fabric skin, not added on as in a traditional top hat) which is butter soft. A 7" stiff crown (or for that matter a 5" stiff crown) is going to need attention when confronting a stiff wind or tree limbs or roving bands of mischievous youth. But these are hats for dress wear. A formal suit might also be uncomfortable to some, but if you enjoy dressing up and the attention to carriage that comes with a fancy occasion, I think a top hat will be no more a challenge to enjoy than a tuxedo or coat and tails.

It must be hard to find a nice topper in your size. I did have a nice Cavanagh opera hat in 7 1/2 (I think) that went to Brad Bowers.

I would also add that I find a proper fitting derby to be the most comfortable hat to wear. It cleaves through a stiff breeze and comes off and on without a worry that a careless touch might muss the crease. I love 'em.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

Not having worn any out of the house or for any length of time, my opinion is from limited experience. But I don't think that it is the case. As with any hat, a good fit is the prescription for comfortable wear. Like a stiff hat, there is little or no path to adjusting one that doesn't fit well from the get go. And as SteveFord notes above, the Gibus frame in a collapsible topper makes for a heavy hat with a steel mechanism that can affect comfort if it does not fit properly on your head.

With those limitations noted, the top hats that fit well feel comfortable on - the opera hats as well. The Stetson (the taller of the two opera hats) has a patent leather "sweatband" (it is integral to the fabric skin, not added on as in a traditional top hat) which is butter soft. A 7" stiff crown (or for that matter a 5" stiff crown) is going to need attention when confronting a stiff wind or tree limbs or roving bands of mischievous youth. But these are hats for dress wear. A formal suit might also be uncomfortable to some, but if you enjoy dressing up and the attention to carriage that comes with a fancy occasion, I think a top hat will be no more a challenge to enjoy than a tuxedo or coat and tails.

It must be hard to find a nice topper in your size. I did have a nice Cavanagh opera hat in 7 1/2 (I think) that went to Brad Bowers.

I would also add that I find a proper fitting derby to be the most comfortable hat to wear. It cleaves through a stiff breeze and comes off and on without a worry that a careless touch might muss the crease. I love 'em.

Thank you, Alan. I wish it had the opportunity to dress in informal attire. It’s been a few years now, but my wife and I both enjoyed the few white tie events we attended. I still have the occasion to dress in semi-formal attire, but it’s rare. Every now and then we’ll go out for an evening and I’ll wear a dinner suit and my wife a cocktail dress; a homburg is my hat of choice.

I’ll have to give the derby another try. Because I’m a long oval, these stiff hats require that I go up in size making them even rarer. I also need a derby with as much brim as I can get as my pumpkin head looks odd in small brimmed derbies. I’m sure that with patience something will come my way.

 

[Short Balding Guy]

Side By Side Comparisons: Stetson Fifteens 3X Beaver.

I showcase two hats of different hues. The darker gray has a sheen to the finish. Almost as if the hat was oiled. Smooth to the eye and tight. The light hued hat does not show the sheen mostly as it is lighter and the morning sunlight light does not play on like the darker.

The 3X Beaver felts are truly a step above in that they are medium thickness and crease/un-crease with ease. The creases show soft rolls that I generally associate with felt of this quality. I suppose you could force a sharp crease. I typically do not force a crease.

They both have the same binding treatment. It is executed with precision. Well done!

The ribbons are the same size right down to the milometer. No wind cord on the lighter hat. I summize this may be to being older and having been worn more frequently.

The insides are different due to wear. The easy visual difference is that the lighter hued Fifteen liner has no markings. I checked and I am not sure if it is a replacement of an original. It still is attached by similar stitches as the medium grey. Perhaps "in the day" hat shops mimicked the manufacturers sewing.

The 3X Beaver markings on the sweat are similar. Ah, but with a closer look the leather sweats are different. The medium gray hat has a thicker leather and a different reeding. The unreeded "oldsters" of the hat world fit and wear light. These two hats wear the same. They fit well and rest easily on the head. It would be easy to see they could be all day hats.

I leave with this collage pic today.

Hats that are a small bit different in age and some small characteristics that are only noticed by the wearer. Stetson Fifteens 3X Beaver. Light gray of medium gray these hats are ready for adventures.

Be safe, be strong and see you on the streets soon, Eric -

(Edited to remove my posting of 3X Clear Beaver vs the correct 3X Beaver. 10:00am, 4/24)

 

[Short Balding Guy]

Last week I had an opportunity to talk about hats with Donna's Costume Construction class. The Zoom meeting was great fun and the 90 minute talk from our "hat room" was recorded. I had hoped to share the link here. Alas, as Zoom newbies, it didn't occur to us that Zoom could not record the phone and computer content simultaneously. The result is 90 minutes of voice against a black screen with my phone number as the visual.

So licking my wounds, I thought I would share the top hat presentation through a display of ten photos. This group represents about 80 years in the history of toppers. The oldest is also the tallest (7.25") - we dated fit rom the mid 1850s from a newspaper page that was folded and stowed behind the sweatband to help the fit on the owners head. (the other tall topper was dated from the address of its Buffalo store origins to mid 1860s). The most recent is also the shortest (5") - the Penn-Craft opera hat, which came with its box and original Kleinhans receipt from 1937.

Many of these hats are posted in detail in other threads (Toppers Unite, and others). I hope you enjoy seeing them together in comparison and that the photos allow you to appreciate the subtle diversity in materials, details and dimensions. To date, I have never worn any of these outside of the house. When it becomes safe to be together with others again, I think I will find an occasion to rectify this.

Licking your wounds and sharing your presentation is to our advantage. Thank you for being generous and sharing your glorious collection. I really enjoy the details and envision the history in your toppers. A journey into the nostalgia of the late 1800's into early 1900's. Thanks Alan.

Be safe, be strong and see you back on the streets soon, Eric -

 

[carouselvic]

Side By Side Comparison
-

Can you show a Stetson 3X that says Clear. My vision is poor. To my knowledge Stetson never made a 3X clear, at least when these hats were made. Thanks

 

[Short Balding Guy]

Can you show a Stetson 3X that says Clear. My vision is poor. To my knowledge Stetson never made a 3X clear, at least when these hats were made. Thanks

Vic; You are correct. I slipped in the Clear when they are just a 3X. I will go back and edit for accuracy. Thanks pointing that out. Eric -

 

[Short Balding Guy]

Vic's correction of my post inspired me to go back and pic up another hat off my hat rack. (It was his sighting of this hat, sending an encouraging PM, that had me working a purchase deal to acquire the hat. Tip of the hat in his direction this morning.)

I will show a Stetson 7X Clear Beaver fedora and the above 3x Ffteen both in a similar felt hues. The 7X Clear is a presentation hat to Stetson's retiring employee Charles Dukek. This is a stingy brim-2". If ever a hat existed to make you wear a stingy brim this is the hat.

The felt hues are darn near the same. The 7X Clear felt when in hand it is clearly different. It is denser and you can feel the increase in weight. Even more clearly the 7X Clear will take a crease, but I would have to use steam to get a sharp crease. The creases stay put and you can be more accurate with them. An example is when putting in side dents, the 7X you can stop where you want and it stays. The 3X will not allow you to be as accurate. It is a plus or minus side dent accuracy with the 3X. Interesting difference when I have them in hand.

The two medium grey hats have similar sweat bands. The liners of the two have small differences. The Clear Beaver is gold while the Fifteen has colors and some font changes.

The brim treatments are different (Mode Edge and bound).

The crown shape, in appearance by bring them to open crown, are nearly identical.

The ribbons are different with the 3X Fifteen having a pleat in the middle of the knot.

A 7X Clear Beaver Presentation hat vs. a 3X Beaver Fifteen in pics.

Be safe, be strong and see you on the streets soon, Eric -

 

[steur]

Last week I had an opportunity to talk about hats with Donna's Costume Construction class. The Zoom meeting was great fun and the 90 minute talk from our "hat room" was recorded. I had hoped to share the link here. Alas, as Zoom newbies, it didn't occur to us that Zoom could not record the phone and computer content simultaneously. The result is 90 minutes of voice against a black screen with my phone number as the visual.

So licking my wounds, I thought I would share the top hat presentation through a display of ten photos. This group represents about 80 years in the history of toppers. The oldest is also the tallest (7.25") - we dated fit rom the mid 1850s from a newspaper page that was folded and stowed behind the sweatband to help the fit on the owners head. (the other tall topper was dated from the address of its Buffalo store origins to mid 1860s). The most recent is also the shortest (5") - the Penn-Craft opera hat, which came with its box and original Kleinhans receipt from 1937.

Many of these hats are posted in detail in other threads (Toppers Unite, and others). I hope you enjoy seeing them together in comparison and that the photos allow you to appreciate the subtle diversity in materials, details and dimensions. To date, I have never worn any of these outside of the house. When it becomes safe to be together with others again, I think I will find an occasion to rectify this.

View attachment 229103

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How did I miss this before? An absolutely fabulous array of toppers in all shapes and sizes. Thanks for posting, Alan.

 

[steur]

Side By Side Comparisons: Stetson Fifteens 3X Beaver.

I showcase two hats of different hues. The darker gray has a sheen to the finish. Almost as if the hat was oiled. Smooth to the eye and tight. The light hued hat does not show the sheen mostly as it is lighter and the morning sunlight light does not play on like the darker.

The 3X Beaver felts are truly a step above in that they are medium thickness and crease/un-crease with ease. The creases show soft rolls that I generally associate with felt of this quality. I suppose you could force a sharp crease. I typically do not force a crease.

They both have the same binding treatment. It is executed with precision. Well done!

The ribbons are the same size right down to the milometer. No wind cord on the lighter hat. I summize this may be to being older and having been worn more frequently.

The insides are different due to wear. The easy visual difference is that the lighter hued Fifteen liner has no markings. I checked and I am not sure if it is a replacement of an original. It still is attached by similar stitches as the medium grey. Perhaps "in the day" hat shops mimicked the manufacturers sewing.

The 3X Beaver markings on the sweat are similar. Ah, but with a closer look the leather sweats are different. The medium gray hat has a thicker leather and a different reeding. The unreeded "oldsters" of the hat world fit and wear light. These two hats wear the same. They fit well and rest easily on the head. It would be easy to see they could be all day hats.

I leave with this collage pic today.

Hats that are a small bit different in age and some small characteristics that are only noticed by the wearer. Stetson Fifteens 3X Beaver. Light gray of medium gray these hats are ready for adventures.

Be safe, be strong and see you on the streets soon, Eric -

(Edited to remove my posting of 3X Clear Beaver vs the correct 3X Beaver. 10:00am, 4/24)

Thanks for the comparison, Eric. Very detailed and informative. I was thinking the difference in sheen of the hats could be the result of "luring" the hat. This was done after punicing to bring out both the colour and sheen of the felt. Rick @humanshoes has been experimenting with it (not all hatmakers do this anymore) with good results as I understand.

 

[steur]

Vic's correction of my post inspired me to go back and pic up another hat off my hat rack. (It was his sighting of this hat, sending an encouraging PM, that had me working a purchase deal to acquire the hat. Tip of the hat in his direction this morning.)

I will show a Stetson 7X Clear Beaver fedora and the above 3x Ffteen both in a similar felt hues. The 7X Clear is a presentation hat to Stetson's retiring employee Charles Dukek. This is a stingy brim-2". If ever a hat existed to make you wear a stingy brim this is the hat.

The felt hues are darn near the same. The 7X Clear felt when in hand it is clearly different. It is denser and you can feel the increase in weight. Even more clearly the 7X Clear will take a crease, but I would have to use steam to get a sharp crease. The creases stay put and you can be more accurate with them. An example is when putting in side dents, the 7X you can stop where you want and it stays. The 3X will not allow you to be as accurate. It is a plus or minus side dent accuracy with the 3X. Interesting difference when I have them in hand.

The two medium grey hats have similar sweat bands. The liners of the two have small differences. The Clear Beaver is gold while the Fifteen has colors and some font changes.

The brim treatments are different (Mode Edge and bound).

The crown shape, in appearance by bring them to open crown, are nearly identical.

The ribbons are different with the 3X Fifteen having a pleat in the middle of the knot.

A 7X Clear Beaver Presentation hat vs. a 3X Beaver Fifteen in pics.

Be safe, be strong and see you on the streets soon, Eric -

And another excellent comparison. Thanks for taking the time and posting these, Eric. I find that not all stingies are created equal. Not only the felt, but also their shape determines much of how one perceives them; as stingies/little hats or as the classic fedoras we all appreciate.