Show us your British suits

[Miss Sis]

This is actually Miss Sis here!

Hopefully Ben will shortly be in control of his own account once more, and not bamboozling you by masquerading as me.
And just a quick note, no, I am not known for wearing menswear!

 

[esteban68]

(Apologies if this duplicates - Computer glitches at this end): Mid 40's CC41 Montague Burton 3 pc in 'heavy wool,' displaying dark navy with light blue and cream pin striping.
Fully lined.
Condition NOS.

Paddy I am extremely envious that is a lovely suit if you ever want to get rid of it and size permitting can I have first refusal...a seriously nice job!

 

[Marc Chevalier]

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This is, without a doubt, the most splendid thread I've ever seen in the "Suits" section. Thank you all! :eusa_clap :eusa_clap


(It feels so good to be learning!)

 

[avedwards]

.
This is, without a doubt, the most splendid thread I've ever seen in the "Suits" section. Thank you all! :eusa_clap :eusa_clap


(It feels so good to be learning!)

I'm quite honoured to have started it in that case. I never expected this level of discussion as I thought it would simply be a few pictures of UK suits, but I've learned a lot from reading this.

 

[avedwards]

Paddy, that 3pc DB is fantastic but what puzzles me is that it is a wartime rationing suit yet it has three pieces, is DB and has cuffs on the trousers. Surely material could have been saved by making it SB and/or not having a waistcoat?

 

[Miss Sis]

Wartime rationing was a very complex subject. What Paddy has there is a suit cut in Utility cloth. The spec number is denoted by the X. That should tell you the weave and threads per inch. The cloth was made to tight regulations, but could be used for garments such as above.

The Austerity suit was the one controlled by these regulations, and was not very popular. So much so, that by 1944 politicians were talking about sending them to displaced people in Europe on relief funds as they had such a stockpile.

Baron and I are trying to find out more about the ins and outs of the Utility and Austerity suits. There is a lot of myth and hearsay surrounding them.

Kindest Regards

 

[Nick D]

Not exactly a suit, but British nonetheless. A black double-breasted stroller jacket. Two slanted inside breast pockets and an in-ticket pocket. The left inside breast pocket has a built-in pen pocket. It also has extended front darts, the only piece I have with this feature.

 

[Two Types]

Not exactly a suit, but British nonetheless. A black double-breasted stroller jacket.
[

That's a nice looking outfit. I think the jacket would look even better with a morning suit trouser - in particular if you can find a striped pair where the cloth is predominantly black, rather than predominantly grey. With the bowler hat and moustache, that's the perfect formal English look. My compliments.

 

[Miss Sis]

Captain J S S Litchfield by the looks of the name. I have been looking him up. He was Captain of the Ninth Boat to hold the Vanguard name in 1951. He also may have been J S S Litchfield-Speer which is in the gazette pre war.

I suspect you could find a lot more info about him as well!

Kindest Regards

Ben

 

[herringbonekid]

The spec number is denoted by the X. That should tell you the weave and threads per inch.

this bit doesn't add up i'm afraid Ben.
suit fabrics back then were measured by the worsted count number which referred to the weight of the fabric. to cut a technically long story short, a typical 1930s or 1940s suit would have a count number of 40 - 60. the higher the number the lighter the fabric. modern suit fabrics are around 100 - 120 or even higher for super-fine suiting fabrics. there's no way a 1940s worsted or flannel could have a count number of 209.

incidentally i have three CC41 garments here (men's suits) with that same number, each of them a different fabric.

i suspect it is simply a batch / sorting number.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

I thought, last time I spoke to Ben, that the X number was the 'grade' of cloth. The numbers don't refer to anything specific about the cloth, just some number the relevant govt dept came up with for a grade of cloth. Notice that all CC41 flat caps you'll find have the same number - spec no 206.

I think Ben has some documentary evidence for this, also.

these 3, for example - 2 different makers, and 2 different fabrics: same spec number.

bk

 

[herringbonekid]

Baron, i agree that's it's some sort of random code number but couldn't be a 'thread count'.
it could be as simple as 206 means 'tweed for men's caps' and 209 means 'men's suiting, dark blue' (the ones i have with that number are different suit fabrics but all dark blue).

 

[Nick D]

Thanks, gents. This was mistakenly listed as a dinner jacket on the 'Bay and without any info from the label.

That's a nice looking outfit. I think the jacket would look even better with a morning suit trouser - in particular if you can find a striped pair where the cloth is predominantly black, rather than predominantly grey. With the bowler hat and moustache, that's the perfect formal English look. My compliments.

I have fabric for striped trousers, I just have to make them. I've also been looking for black and white dog-tooth fabric, but have been having a terrible time. My fabric guy has had it twice, but each time not quite enough for a pair of trousers.

Captain J S S Litchfield by the looks of the name. I have been looking him up. He was Captain of the Ninth Boat to hold the Vanguard name in 1951.

He was indeed Capt. Litchfield, former MP for Chelsea. He has a small page on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Litchfield_(politician)

 

[Miss Sis]

Baron, i agree that's it's some sort of random code number but couldn't be a 'thread count'.
it could be as simple as 206 means 'tweed for men's caps' and 209 means 'men's suiting, dark blue' (the ones i have with that number are different suit fabrics but all dark blue).

Yes, sorry HBK, you are correct. It is not directly relating to the thread count, it is the quality of cloth we think, how the code works, I am not sure yet. I was typing quickly and not engaging brain!

Kindest Regards

 

[Miss Sis]

I am pretty sure it is the quality of the cloth. Read below

Utility Cloth
HC Deb 07 December 1950 vol 482 cc504-6 504

§ 5. Mr. John Rodgers

asked the President of the Board of Trade to what extent the quality of utility cloth 207 differs from the quality two years ago.

Mr. H. Wilson

The maximum price for cloth to which the specification No. 207 may be applied has not been raised 505 during the past two years, despite considerable increases in the price of raw wool and in other costs. Consequently, the quality of the cloth is lower than it was then, but it is not practicable to say in general terms how much lower. Cloth of the quality which was sold two years ago as 207 can now be obtained under the specification No. 211.

§ Mr. Rodgers

Since the public are not aware of this debasement, does not the right hon. Gentleman think that he is taking part in the perpetration of a fraud on the public?

Mr. Wilson

Certainly not. It was announced at the time that we were not going to allow prices to rise as much as they would have risen without control, and it was made clear that there would be some debasement of quality.

§ Sir Waldron Smithers

Will the right hon. Gentleman read, and will he ask his colleagues in the Government to read, the leading article in the "Daily Mail" this morning, headed "The Great Illusion"?

§ Mr. Speaker

That has nothing to do with the quality of utility cloth No. 207.

9. Mr. Macdonald

asked the President of the Board of Trade, in view of the fact that for the last three months it has been impossible to produce the most expensive Scottish woollen utility cloth, 227C, from poorest carpet wools, and as wool and yarn stocks are being used up rapidly with the result that serious unemployment is threatened, what action he is taking to increase ceiling prices for current utility categories or to issue new categories.

Mr. H. Wilson

Discussions have taken place with the manufacturers on their proposals for increases in the maximum prices for utility wool cloths—including the woollen cloth 227C—to take account of the rise in the world price of raw wool. I hope to make an announcement shortly.

Mr. Macdonald

In view of the rapid rise in raw material prices, is it possible for the right hon. Gentleman to review the utility prices at shorter intervals?

Mr. Wilson

The industry applied for this increase on 27th October, which was some little time after the increase in prices.

§ Squadron Leader Burden

If it is necessary to include fibre in woollen cloth, 506 will the right hon. Gentleman ensure that a ticket is attached to the garment so that the public may be informed that it is not pure wool?

Mr. Wilson

That is another question.

 

[Miss Sis]

It is interesting to note they are saying that in 1950 to get the same quality cloth as 207 in 1948 you would have to buy spec no 211.

On a side note

Utility Dresses (Price)
HC Deb 11 July 1950 vol 477 c89W 89W

§ 65. Captain Orr

asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will consider raising the making-up ceiling price of Cotton Utility 3057 to a higher figure than that for Spun Rayon Utility 1006, in order to make the export of the former cloth a practical possibility.

§ Mr. Bottomley

If, as I assume, the hon. and gallant Member is referring to the maximum price for utility dresses made from utility cotton cloth X3057, the answer is "No." It is not proposed to raise the maximum prices for utility dresses made from utility cotton cloths by reason of the relationship between prices for those cloths and prices for other fabrics.

 

[Miss Sis]

HC Deb 29 July 1946 vol 426 c103W 103W

§ Sir W. Smithers

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that, owing to increase in wages costs in the wool trade, it is not now possible to maintain a good quality of 210a material at 3 coupons a yard value and the leading makers have demanded an advance in price which takes the cloth into the 210b category thus involving 4½ coupons per yard instead of 3, to the detriment of the consumer; and what action he proposes to take in this matter.

§ Sir S. Cripps

No, Sir. Cloth manufacturers are taking orders for utility cloth No. 210A in much larger quantities than last year, and I have no evidence that they are not maintaining the normal quality of this specification.

 

[Miss Sis]

This put paid to my theory. It is a very confusing subject! I would like to see a definitive guide published by the government and give to tailors!


Industrial Corduroy Trousers
HC Deb 04 May 1948 vol 450 c115W 115W

§ 78. Lieut.-Colonel Corbett

asked the President of the Board of Trade what are the regulations limiting the number of industrial corduroy trousers of over 32 inch length available to retailers.

§ Mr. Bottomley

It is shortage of corduroy cloth that limits the number of industrial corduroy trousers available in all sizes. Production of over 32 inch length is at present subject to licence because, as part of arrangements designed to secure that all available utility cloth is made up into working style trousers, and not into ordinary trousers with turn-ups, the utility garment specification includes a maximum inside leg measurement.

 

[Miss Sis]

It seems to me the specification also defines the wool content, and the grade of materials used.

 

[Miss Sis]

I have just found out that in June 1942 the BSI issued detailed specifications for Utility cloth. It would be interesting to see these. I suspect that will answer all the questions!

It is all here!!

http://www.bsigroup.com/en/Standard...e/Withdrawn-standards/Withdrawn-collection-1/

This will be the deffinitive answer!


Kindest Regards

Ben