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Seperating myth from reality: Nazi secret tech development projects
- Thread starter Tiki Tom
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MikeKardec
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Ah yes, the inevitable Toilet Death that is waiting for all too smart for their own good engineers! It's not good enough that you somehow kill yourself with the toilet but you take all your comrades with you!
It's still somewhat breath taking for this reasonably well off American to see how the truly rich in Europe live. High taxes, semi socialism, less of a tendency to show off ... all true. But, oh my gosh the people who have true riches really have a lifestyle! I used to walk by (and through) the Crillon Hotel (top o' the line digs in Paris) just to get a whiff of it. The cars out front on the weekends were INSANE! You definitely get a sense of a completely bespoke universe. On the other hand maybe it just because they were out in public. Possibly the American Billionaires don't have cars they have planes and stay in their own houses wherever they go.
There IS a great deal of difference between the slightly rich and the very rich ... I do know that. Anyway, you could see how either by being part of that crowd, wanting to be part of that crowd or spending too much time catering to that crowd could create a 'perfect is the enemy of good' and an 'I want all my pilots armed with a 10 lb Drilling like a country squire' frame of mind!
If I can throw out a couple of comments to an interesting thread more than a year after the last post:
The rumor that there were bunkers somewhere in Germany, usually in Bavaria, were still very much alive when I was stationed there (Augsburg) in the mid-1960s. Both my son and my son-in-law were also stationed there but never mentioned any such things, so the rumor must be dead by now. When I was there, however, there were leftover WWII legacies that no one ever mentions now; didn't then, either, like the labor battalions of WWII soldiers who didn't go back home in Eastern Europe. But who's interested in stuff like that.
I disagree that American industry ever produced crude products during the war. Like the Germans, though, there were many dead-end projects that turned out to be impractical or unsuited to the needs at the time. But at the same time, it produced many innovative products for specific purposes that were very useful during the way and not so much since then. Landing craft of all sorts is a good example. Not the stuff of science fiction, to be sure, but the right stuff at the right time.
It may be true that the Germans went to war before they were ready but the reality is that they may have never went to war if they waited until they were. Or, more likely, any advantage in preparation and advances in technology would not necessarily be achieved because the enemy is (presumably) becoming more prepared at the same time. But maybe not.
The most successful German war machine was their propaganda machine. All through the war, it was still chiefly a horse-drawn army. Only the Soviets continued to use large numbers of horses. German losses in the invasions of Poland, France and Norway were very high but they achieved their objectives nevertheless, partly by having a willingness to accept high losses. That was something from WWI. Other nations were either unable or unwilling to do that, although that was not a problem for the Soviets. But it caught up with them and also for Japan in the same way. They were able to produce high-tech weapons faster than they were able to produce highly trained specialists. That may have been more of a serious problem for the Japanese in regard to pilots.
I think it is a myth that technology deteriorates in wartime. That's the "next war will be fought with rocks" idea. The Germans were able to continue to produce advanced weapons right up to the very end. The fact that they were about to produce anything at all is astonishing. And part of the reason is due to German--or Prussian--qualities. Mind you, other nations had qualities, too, even the so-called peasant Russian soldier. When the war started, the Russian soldier or any Slav was thought to be sub-human. By the end of the war, he was more like super human.
The rumor that there were bunkers somewhere in Germany, usually in Bavaria, were still very much alive when I was stationed there (Augsburg) in the mid-1960s. Both my son and my son-in-law were also stationed there but never mentioned any such things, so the rumor must be dead by now. When I was there, however, there were leftover WWII legacies that no one ever mentions now; didn't then, either, like the labor battalions of WWII soldiers who didn't go back home in Eastern Europe. But who's interested in stuff like that.
I disagree that American industry ever produced crude products during the war. Like the Germans, though, there were many dead-end projects that turned out to be impractical or unsuited to the needs at the time. But at the same time, it produced many innovative products for specific purposes that were very useful during the way and not so much since then. Landing craft of all sorts is a good example. Not the stuff of science fiction, to be sure, but the right stuff at the right time.
It may be true that the Germans went to war before they were ready but the reality is that they may have never went to war if they waited until they were. Or, more likely, any advantage in preparation and advances in technology would not necessarily be achieved because the enemy is (presumably) becoming more prepared at the same time. But maybe not.
The most successful German war machine was their propaganda machine. All through the war, it was still chiefly a horse-drawn army. Only the Soviets continued to use large numbers of horses. German losses in the invasions of Poland, France and Norway were very high but they achieved their objectives nevertheless, partly by having a willingness to accept high losses. That was something from WWI. Other nations were either unable or unwilling to do that, although that was not a problem for the Soviets. But it caught up with them and also for Japan in the same way. They were able to produce high-tech weapons faster than they were able to produce highly trained specialists. That may have been more of a serious problem for the Japanese in regard to pilots.
I think it is a myth that technology deteriorates in wartime. That's the "next war will be fought with rocks" idea. The Germans were able to continue to produce advanced weapons right up to the very end. The fact that they were about to produce anything at all is astonishing. And part of the reason is due to German--or Prussian--qualities. Mind you, other nations had qualities, too, even the so-called peasant Russian soldier. When the war started, the Russian soldier or any Slav was thought to be sub-human. By the end of the war, he was more like super human.
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Long before 1939, Hitler himself got the opinion, that a big war wouldn't happen before 1946 (!). And the whole armament-"plan" provided a fuel-storage for the whole military until 1945!
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To some extent, I think the Germans went into the war handicapped by their own propaganda. That is, the myths made to excuse their defeat in WWI. Ludendorff claimed that the German army was not defeated in the field but rather that it was stabbed in the back at home. It may be human nature to fall for such things as an excuse for their own failures. I suppose it always difficult to admit that the enemy was more successful than you were.
On the other hand, their plan to invade France was little different from the same plan attempted in 1914. So when you hear someone say that it's stupid to keep attempting something that failed, don't believe them. Likewise, their (German) own line of fortifications along the border with France proved to be very difficult to pass by mainly the American forces. But the Maginot line was equally difficult to overcome, too, a fact that was suppressed by the Germans, understandably. But it's easier to understand when you realize that the German population was and still is, significantly larger than the French. In fact, the population of Germany in 1945 was just about the same as it was in 1914.
On the other hand, their plan to invade France was little different from the same plan attempted in 1914. So when you hear someone say that it's stupid to keep attempting something that failed, don't believe them. Likewise, their (German) own line of fortifications along the border with France proved to be very difficult to pass by mainly the American forces. But the Maginot line was equally difficult to overcome, too, a fact that was suppressed by the Germans, understandably. But it's easier to understand when you realize that the German population was and still is, significantly larger than the French. In fact, the population of Germany in 1945 was just about the same as it was in 1914.
Tiki Tom
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Fascinating evidence that maybe the Nazis were closer to developing a nuclear bomb than we thought. Maybe.
It seems that an amateur archaeologist was investigating a site in East Germany where Hitler’s mad scientists had once been working on the bomb.
He found a lump of enriched uranium and, not knowing what it was, he took it home.
Bottom line: it was highly dangerous stuff and nearby apartments had to be evacuated.
I’m sure more news regarding the level of enrichment, etc., will be made available in the coming days/weeks.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...germany-amateur-treasure-hunter-a7963521.html
Also:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4909138/Street-evacuated-radioactive-material-discovered.html
It seems that an amateur archaeologist was investigating a site in East Germany where Hitler’s mad scientists had once been working on the bomb.
He found a lump of enriched uranium and, not knowing what it was, he took it home.
Bottom line: it was highly dangerous stuff and nearby apartments had to be evacuated.
I’m sure more news regarding the level of enrichment, etc., will be made available in the coming days/weeks.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...germany-amateur-treasure-hunter-a7963521.html
Also:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4909138/Street-evacuated-radioactive-material-discovered.html
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In Germany, there is a consensus, that they were really on the right way to the modern usage of fusion-power, but seemingly not on the way to nuclear-bombs. The german nuclear-bomb seems to be more or less a "myth". And they were far away from effective usage. Maybe, there were development in the way of fuel-cells. But, the whole development was in an really early phase.
MikeKardec
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I was surprised to discover that fuel cell is actually a pretty old technology, the concept dating back to the mid 19th century. The first time I heard of it I'd have never guessed but a lot of technology has roots farther back in the past than we tend to think. I'm guessing that the fusion idea goes back a ways too, but implementation seems very difficult yet growing closer to a reality. Not to comment in any antagonistic way, but I doubt anyone has been sitting on the secret to usable fusion power, the person, company, or nation that gets there first will control the future. It's the one big game changer that we know of. I, personally, am always more interested in the game changers that we don't know of or that we only suspect ... I'd love to find one that could grow out of WWII Nazi technology, I have a story that is just waiting for something of that sort!
Hi Tom, this is a really interesting thread! My primary concern is Imperial Japan's inhumanity and madness (and maybe the evidence to support the idea that Imperial Japan was one giant death cult on a holy war, could be thrown up in a thread for discussion some time), but yeah, the Nazi's.
In the course of my research on the Japanese some years back, I read something really interesting about the nazis. This one academic (can't recall his name) posited that the nazi leadership were just a bunch of thugs- socially insecure people overcompensating, and built a system made up of equally insecure mediocrity. The end result was the 'banality of evil' situation where nobody really question what they were being told to do, evil became beaucrotized.
So, this guy's thesis was that whilst the Nazi's did have access to clever scientists they could push into advanced projects, and whilst the nazis did have a romanticism for the occult, these things have been overplayed, exaggerated, and made into modern myths because the fact is that postwar generations are struggling to understand how such mediocre and ordinary people (just like people anywhere!) could do such unspeakable crimes against humanity.
We 'want' to believe that there was more to it bacause it helps us think that the nazis weren't ordinary people (kind of like us).
It's an interesting proposition.
Personally, 'an SS General, Jakob Sporrenberg', stop me if I'm wrong, but that's a very Jewish name for a member of the SS, isn't it?
In the course of my research on the Japanese some years back, I read something really interesting about the nazis. This one academic (can't recall his name) posited that the nazi leadership were just a bunch of thugs- socially insecure people overcompensating, and built a system made up of equally insecure mediocrity. The end result was the 'banality of evil' situation where nobody really question what they were being told to do, evil became beaucrotized.
So, this guy's thesis was that whilst the Nazi's did have access to clever scientists they could push into advanced projects, and whilst the nazis did have a romanticism for the occult, these things have been overplayed, exaggerated, and made into modern myths because the fact is that postwar generations are struggling to understand how such mediocre and ordinary people (just like people anywhere!) could do such unspeakable crimes against humanity.
We 'want' to believe that there was more to it bacause it helps us think that the nazis weren't ordinary people (kind of like us).
It's an interesting proposition.
Personally, 'an SS General, Jakob Sporrenberg', stop me if I'm wrong, but that's a very Jewish name for a member of the SS, isn't it?
HanauMan
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This wasn't a 'gun to shoot around corners'! It was an attachment fitted to the barrel of a StG44 that allowed tank crews to shoot out from the hatches without exposing themselves fully to enemy fire. It was designed to clear enemy troops who had jumped onto the tanks. I first heard about this weapon system in the 1970s when my dad and his army buddies were discussing it. They were armored cavalry, rode the old M60s, M113s and M551s in West Germany. I recall that they thought it was a good idea. At the time all they had were their WWII 1911A1s and old WWII Grease Guns for personal defence.
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That may or may not be a Jewish name but I have a CD of a German folk music group with the name of Goldberg.
I'm not so sure I agree with those ideas about Germany and Japan. Both countries were very militaristic and in the case of Japan (but not Germany), the military ran things. They, Japan, had had a bad experience after the war with Russia and thought that they lost everything at the peace conference, arranged mainly by Theodore Roosevelt, that they had gained during the war. But the attitude of their army, both collectively and individually, led them to do brutal things. They had an attitude of superiority over everyone else. The Japanese Navy, from what I understand, had a different attitude about everything and was often at odds with the army. Anyway, when American forces occupied Japan after the war, Americans were surprised at the way they weren't quite as bad as we imagined them to be as a people--distinct from the military.
The Nazis did start out as street thugs. But when Hitler finally achieved power, that behavior was no longer acceptable to the German population and that part was eliminated almost right away. It's still interesting to speculate on Nazi leadership and why they did things. The obvious answer to most questions is that they, Hitler in particular, wanted to enlarge Germany. Britain, France and even the United States had their colonies. Germany had lost what colonies they had managed to create in WWI but there was still that desire which had supposedly been explicitly stated in Mein Kampf. The expansion of Germany was going to be to the East. You could call it a sort of manifest destiny. Technology didn't enter into the matter.
But they naturally exploited every possible technical advantage for war purposes, just like everyone else. They also exploited the German people's natural prejudices for their political advantage as propaganda. We did the same thing and had before, in WWI. It was a little harder for us to create monsters out of Germans because of many people's ancestries, less so for the Japanese. But once the war started, it was easier.
There was a line in the movie "Ice Station Zebra," about "our German scientists, their German scientists and your German scientists" that about sums it up.
MikeKardec
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So right, Germany, Italy and Japan were all overwhelmed with colony envy. Strange too because the era of colonies being a financial boon to the mother country was just about over. High populations, modernizing in the areas to be colonized and better financial practices seem to have made colonies quite a drain to administer since the old days of Cortez and the like when a colony could simply be raped of its assets. So many tragedies hold an aspect of "too late." I have always felt that Soviet communism appeared just as many of the things Marx objected to, like factory workers being used as the parts of machines that were too complicated for 19th century tech to create, were disappearing and other avenues toward worker power, like labor unions, were on the increase.
Labor unions seem to be no longer on the increase and the other social reasons for revolution have certainly not disappeared. And as for "colony envy," that sounds too Freudian for me. But you can't deny they wanted to conquer other lands for their own economic advantage. It's all about land. There may be other reasons for invading other countries but none are as useful as acquiring more land and natural resources.
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Well, there was Alfred Rosenberg, the so-called "philosopher" and ideologist of the Nazi movement.
LizzieMaine
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Rosenberg was of Latvian ancestry -- and picked up most of his "philosophy" from Houston Stewart Chamberlain, a British Protestant who wanted more than anything in the world to be German.
Otter
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Dangerous junk from the war is still surfacing, even in the UK. There is a thread over on the Fly past forum if anyone is interested. Basically some folks were bottle hunting in woodland that was a former RAF base and is now a plantation
They found a nice stash of bottles filled full of an oily fluid which turned out to be mustard gas in its liquid form.
They found a nice stash of bottles filled full of an oily fluid which turned out to be mustard gas in its liquid form.
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The old question, if Bismarck was sunk or scuttled.
Let's face some facts.
Operation V (Versenken) was set on circa 10:15. The cooling water-inlets were opened, water flooded in slowly. The "V-explosive charges" were set on the marked places, 15 minutes countdown (report Hans Zimmermann). ABANDON SHIP!!
When the charges exploded at circa. 10:30, Bismarck sank rapidly by the stern and rolled over. Maybe there were only charges set on the aft half of Bismarck. Bismarck sank in circa. 8 minutes! The underfloor of the ship was seen undamaged.
The wreck is in excellent condition. Seemingly no implosion. James Cameron reported the inner "torpedoschott" (Krupp Wotan Soft) beeing intact.
There's no survivor's report, that the ship was sinking before 10:15.
They couldn't sink the ship with shells, they couldn't sink the ship with a handful torpedos.
Remember the end of Scharnhorst. They had to shoot a whole arsenal into her. And Bismarck-class had improved and stronger armor!
Let's face some facts.
Operation V (Versenken) was set on circa 10:15. The cooling water-inlets were opened, water flooded in slowly. The "V-explosive charges" were set on the marked places, 15 minutes countdown (report Hans Zimmermann). ABANDON SHIP!!
When the charges exploded at circa. 10:30, Bismarck sank rapidly by the stern and rolled over. Maybe there were only charges set on the aft half of Bismarck. Bismarck sank in circa. 8 minutes! The underfloor of the ship was seen undamaged.
The wreck is in excellent condition. Seemingly no implosion. James Cameron reported the inner "torpedoschott" (Krupp Wotan Soft) beeing intact.
There's no survivor's report, that the ship was sinking before 10:15.
They couldn't sink the ship with shells, they couldn't sink the ship with a handful torpedos.
Remember the end of Scharnhorst. They had to shoot a whole arsenal into her. And Bismarck-class had improved and stronger armor!
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As I understand it, the Bismarck was scuttled to keep the British from boarding it. The steering had been damaged by a torpedo and was no longer operable. The superstructure was heavily damage with large loss of life. Even though the ship was heavily damage and could no longer be steered, its amour plated hull and deck were mostly undamaged. Without the ability to steer, its ultimate demise was a forgone conclusion. Thus the decision to scuttle to avoid boarding.
